Episode 351: Quinn Kelly: Connecting AAC and ASL to Support Deaf & Hard of Hearing Communicators

This week, we share Rachel’s interview with Quinn Kelly! Quinn Kelly is a bilingual speech-language pathologist who specializes in working with children who use both AAC and American Sign Language (ASL). She serves on the AAC committee for the New Jersey Speech and Hearing Association and works with Language First, an organization supporting professionals serving deaf and hard-of-hearing students. In this episode, Quinn shares her expertise on the intersection of AAC and ASL, advocating for culturally sensitive, individualized, and collaborative approaches to communication support.

Key Ideas this Week:

The Intersection of AAC and ASL Requires Cultural and Clinical Sensitivity – Quinn Kelly emphasizes that not all deaf or hard-of-hearing individuals are ideal candidates for AAC, and decisions must consider cognitive, motor, visual, and cultural factors. Professionals should avoid a one-size-fits-all approach and ensure AAC supports are culturally and linguistically respectful of Deaf identity and ASL as a full language.

Collaboration and Family-Centered Decision Making Are Essential – Effective support requires collaboration among SLPs, teachers of the deaf, audiologists, OTs/PTs, and families. Since most families of deaf or hard-of-hearing children have little prior experience with Deaf culture, professionals play a key role in educating and guiding them through complex communication decisions involving sign language, AAC, and spoken modalities.

Research and Practical Strategies Can Bridge AAC and ASL – Quinn shares practical tools (e.g., ASL symbol sets, video-based icons, advocacy buttons like “I need an interpreter”) and highlights new research she co-authored showing how AAC and ASL can complement each other. This underscores the growing recognition—supported by ASHA’s updated stance—that ASL is a language, not a form of AAC, and that multimodal communication approaches can empower deaf and hard-of-hearing communicators.

Transcript of the Episode

Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.

00:00:00 Chris Bugaj
Welcome to Talking With Tech. My name is Chris Bugaj, and I'm here with Rachel Madel. Rachel, how's it going?

00:00:13 Rachel Madel
It's going good, Chris. How you doing?

00:00:16 Chris Bugaj
All right. Well, okay. So the last times we got together, we talked a little bit about some stories that happened over the summer, personal stuff that's been happening. What about professionally? What's been going on, let's say, since the late spring of 2025 to when this airs?

00:00:35 Rachel Madel
Yeah, great question. Lots has been going on. I was so sad to say goodbye to a clinician that has been in my practice for a couple years. She went on maternity leave, and I was really excited for her and her new chapter, but was really sad that we had to say goodbye. And that put me into hiring mode, which I have been in before. I've been in private practice for almost 12 years now, and I have definitely hired in the past. It just felt a little different this time. It felt like a little trickier. Um, I don't know if the market's changing in Los Angeles. Um, I will say I wish it was a remote position because I reached out to my whole community online and so many people, like, were, is this virtual? Like, can I do this remotely? And it was like, oh, I wish. Like, this is actually a local position in Los Angeles. So, long story short, I had to end up shifting and changing some things in our practice for my online business. But we're in a good space. I am in the process of finalizing the re recording of AAC Ally assessment. I just launched AAC Ally treatment last year, and I feel so proud about that course. I have really done, I think, you know, the best you can do as far as asynchronous learning. When it comes to really helping integrate the information that clinicians are learning, There's a ton of videos and reflective questions. I'm, like, encouraging everybody to pause the video, think about what's going on in the video. I'm asking them reflective questions. Then I'm also thinking through the lens of how to help them learn how to coach. So then I'm encouraging them to think of reflective questions, like, what would you ask this mom if you're doing a coach session with her? So, anyway, it's been really cool to see how valuable that's been to people. I get a lot of feedback from the course once people are done. And it's been, I'd say the biggest. The biggest kind of takeaway, which I'm so happy about, was like, I love the coaching module. I love like the videos of kids you're working with and like, parents sharing videos and like, the whole kind of process that I do clinically with coaching. And so that's been really cool. And so I'm doing something similar with kind of a relaunch of the assessment version. It was five years ago that I created AAC Ally Assessment, which was the original course. And there's just so much that has changed in my clinical work and also just in the field in general. And so I am completely revamping the course, doing a lot more with coaching and a lot more kind of case studies and videos of assessments to get people thinking kind of critically about how do we assess for age aac and like, what types of considerations are we thinking through, how do we get teams on board, and how do we really use the assessment process as a way to just launch into the coaching process. Right. Like, it's so important to really support communication partners throughout the process of AAC assessment and just kind of rethinking the way that we approach it. And so I'm really excited. I, like, have had a lot going on personally, which we shared in past episodes, but I'm very close to finishing this new course, and I'm hoping to launch it this fall. And so I'm really excited to be done and get it out there and get people taking it and getting feedback. And so that's kind of, in a nutshell, what we've been doing over here.

00:04:21 Chris Bugaj
If people wanted to learn more or get notified that the course is now available or look into past work, what's the best way for them to. To. To stay involved?

00:04:31 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I mean, anyone who's on my email list will be notified. So you can go to my website or Freebie Vault is kind of the. The door into our email list. You can also just go to aacli.com and there's a form you fill out that again, puts you on our email list, and that's essentially the wait list. So you'll be the first to know when we open it. So, yeah, that's the best way. I mean, I definitely will be posting on social media when it opens, but, you know, social media, sometimes you don't. For whatever reason, the algorithm doesn't hit you right. And you don't see things. So I would say the email list is the best way to. To be in the know. So, Chris, tell me what's going on with you?

00:05:10 Chris Bugaj
Um, well, let's see. We still have the course, the specific language system first approach. People write me about that all the time. And that continues to garner support and attendance in that course for people learning. Okay, well, yes, there's lots of information out there on the Internet. Sometimes it's wrong information. Right? So just go right to the source. So that exists. Go to chrisbouguet.com if you want to learn more about that course. But I think more than what's been going on with me, it's my wife that I want to brag about. Dr. Bouguet got her doctorate over a year ago now. And one of the things she studied as part of her doctorate is, and what she did her thesis on with a team of individuals was other people getting their doctorate is chronic absenteeism. So in many states now, I'm curious how it is around the country, in other states and then around the world. But certainly many states now have adopted a new way of evaluating schools. And part of that evaluation of schools is attendance. So what are your attendance numbers? And is there, there's a threshold for what is considered chronically absent. And so her and her PhD buddy created a course called the Secret Sauce, which is again, helping educators or educational teams go through a process of thinking about what's up with our attendance and what can be done about it based on what other places have done on research that's been done. And so we're not floundering, trying to think, well, what if we did this magic thing or this magic thing for attendance? It's here. Develop this plan based off of research and work that has already been done. Like I said, a lot of places now this is 10% or something. The formula might vary depending on where you are, but it's a part of the algorithm for what makes a school successful and what it's being evaluated on by the state educational departments. So it's becoming more, it's. I mean, it's always been important. So I just feel like her timing is right. She doesn't. It's so brand new, Rachel, that there's not even a bitly yet, you know, or a website like she just. They just finished it, launched it. But there's still some, you know, the, the stuff you put around your course. You know, you know this better than anybody. People aren't going to find it by accident. You got to advertise it, right. So what does that look like? And then. So there's still some work to be done there. But the, the, you know, the largest part is creating the content and making sure it's awesome. And that part is, is done. So really pleased to announce, like I said, it's called the Secret Sa. Check out Mel Bougay anywhere. That's her handle everywhere. Or just write me and I'll send it to you. All Those are great options for now until they have a better system for getting the word out.

00:08:08 Rachel Madel
That's amazing. Oh, my gosh. I'll have to send her a text message and tell her I'm so excited for her and let me know if there's any way I can support that. Because while I don't do a lot in the schools, I feel like I still access a lot of people that are in the schools and administrators and things like that. So it sounds like a really valuable learning opportunity for especially administrators who are trying to really dial in their district and improve attendance. I feel like that is such an important thing. How are kids supposed to learn if they're not in school? And I know that there's a lot of, especially with our population, a lot of reasons why that might be the case. However, sounds like there's a really clear plan forward. And I think that that's oftentimes the hardest part is, like, developing the plan. And so it sounds like she's, like, taken the hard part out of it. And so I'm sure it's going to be wildly successful. And I'm really excited.

00:09:03 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. And they're like, us, Rachel. I think we try and keep it light and have some fun, and there's personalities back and forth. It's not just her, it's. It's her and her partner. So there's conversation sort of similar to how you and I are with Talking with Tech, which brings us to talking with Tech. So no surprise here if you've been a long time talking with Tech Listener or even if you just started listening to it. We had a little bit of a hiatus where we've explained over the last couple episodes some of the reasons behind that hiatus. But now we're looking forward. And so the question becomes, Rachel, what do we want talking with tech to be and to become? In some ways, it feels like we sort of did it, you know, like we've. We've been for over 7 years, 350 plus episodes bonus content. Patreon. We could keep going just as we are, and I think it would still be really helpful. But then we started thinking, well, is this a time where this sort of natural break happened for us, that it should. We should be thinking about what comes next? How does that sound?

00:10:09 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I mean, we've definitely had a lot of conversations, and we're still kind of navigating those waters. But we've discussed, like, what if we change the format a little bit? Like, how do we help really support listeners across the board? We know that there's some first time listeners that are introduced to our podcast, whether that's you and I talking at a speaking event or someone stumbling upon an episode from a Google search. And so the question becomes, like, at this point, since we've been doing the podcast for so long and there's so much content, like, where do you even begin? Like, how do you start? Like, and it's, you know, one step. At a time, of course, but how. Do we maybe curate or guide that experience for people that are new to aac? We also have a lot of amazing listeners who have been ride or dies with us for almost the entire length of the podcast. And so it's like, if you've listened to so many episodes, how do we maybe change the format so that we can optimize the way that people are introduced to the podcast, the way that people can share the podcast? And so we've thought about a lot of these questions as we've tried to navigate. What are we doing next? How do we shift? I feel like the best, the best businesses and entrepreneurs are the ones that are constantly thinking about innovating and trying to optimize the way that things are unfolding. And I think our podcast is no different. Like, how do we continue to provide value? And I think that's partially where our listeners come in. So, you know, if you have any ideas, thoughts, things that you love about the podcast, things that you'd like to see more of. Of course, we're always open to. You can email us at talking with techmail.com that's our email. And yeah, I think that we're. Seems like we're trying to really like dial in some things and make some decisions, but it's been, it's been a fun process to kind of reflect back and think about where we've been and then look forward and figure out, okay, where are we going and how do we create? Whatever it is, it feels aligned for us. And I think that's the cool thing is that we can, we can choose that we can decide that like this is, we started this and like, we can shift and change and of course we would love insight. So if you have any, please, please share. But it's been a fun process to kind of figure out what comes next.

00:12:35 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, I could not agree more. It's super fun to be brainstorming the future of talking with tech Together. I want to be clear, too, to say that we know that there's still a huge need. Right. So, yes, we've, we've been, I think, some good contributors. We've got. We've done some good, good work contributing to the field here in talking with tech. That work needs to continue. It's just what format does that look like? And I would also reiterate that, yes, if you have ideas, listeners, we'd love to hear from you. So reach out in any vein possible. You could reach out to Rachel separately, me separately, talkingwithtechmail.com however you can reach us. We would love to get your ideas because a reformatting is coming. It's just. And we, we have some good ideas. We just want to make sure they are the best ideas and that they align with what other people are looking forward to.

00:13:30 Rachel Madel
Yes, totally. So we would love to hear from you, Chris. Let's dive into the interview I did today. It was such a good one. I interviewed Quinn Kelly. Quinn specializes in AAC and American Sign Language, and I felt like it was such a great opportunity. I can't remember exactly who recommended Quinn. One of our listeners reached out and asked if we had any episodes on sign language, and I said no. And Quinn's name was brought up. And I just am so excited that I had the chance to interview her. We talk all about the intersection of AAC with deaf and hard of hearing populations. And wow, like, there's so much to, like, think about. And even as I was interviewing her, just so much more came to the surface. And so it was a really amazing interview. And again, it's not all the time that we run into this intersection with. Deaf and hard of hearing and aac. But when we do, it's like, how do we feel equipped? And there's lots of things to think about. There's lots of considerations that I go through and Quinn helps kind of discuss. And I thought it was an amazing episode. Without further ado, here's my interview I did with Queen Kelly.

00:14:54 Chris Bugaj
If you enjoy talking with tech, we could use your help in spreading the word about the podcast. Please take a moment to leave us a review on itunes. The more positive reviews the podcast gets, the easier it becomes for others to find it. The more people who find the podcast, the more the word spreads about how to effectively consider and implement aac. And who doesn't want that? If that sounds good to you, please take a moment and give the podcast a quick review. We'd so very much appreciate it. Now let's get back into the episode.

00:15:30 Rachel Madel
Welcome to Talking with Tech. I'm your host, Rachel Madel, joined today by Quinn Kelly. Quinn, I'm so excited to have you here.

00:15:37 Quinn Kelly
Yay. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here too.

00:15:40 Rachel Madel
Yes. So let's just start off by telling our listeners a little bit about yourself.

00:15:44 Quinn Kelly
Of course. I am a speech language pathologist based in New Jersey and New York. I'm a bilingual speech language pathologist, but with American Sign Language. I have my ASOPI certification through Gallaudet University, and I primarily work with kids using AAC and asl. I also sit on the AAC committee for the New Jersey Speech and Hearing association. And I work in a private practice. The way you say that is focused in northern New Jersey as well as I'm a content expert for Language first, which is an amazing organization that supports professionals working with deaf and hard of hearing kids. So it's a really cool bundle of lots of stuff.

00:16:28 Rachel Madel
Yeah. And I'm really excited that we're covering just kind of the intersection between deaf and hard of hearing and aac. And I know that there's just not a lot of content on the topic. And so. So we've had questions throughout the years about how do we support sign language and this population and integrate aac, and there's definitely some mixed opinions about it. And so I'm really excited to kind of dive in with you just because it is an area. If we're really thinking through the lens. Of supporting individuals with multimodal communication and really increasing access for all students who need support using aac, this is obviously a population that we need to consider. And there's definitely things about this population that make it tricky both just to execute and implement aac, but also in my own clinical experience to collaborate with other professionals. So I'm really excited to dive in. I guess let's just start by the overview. What are the things that we need to think about when we're thinking about deaf and hard of healing hearing populations and aac?

00:17:36 Quinn Kelly
Definitely. I think some of the biggest questions that I've got over the I've received over a period of time that I've been working with this population is just like, is AAC even an option? I think sometimes, like us and even myself, like, I'm a really big tech nerd. I love working with technology and other professionals who are AAC geared who do AAC evaluations, whether they're contractor with the district or things like that. They're like, so I have a kid, like, is this ethical is this not? And I think so often AAC professionals were like, everyone is a candidate for every aac. Everyone can use it. And I definitely think that is true, but I think when we are looking at this population that sometimes it's not always true. And I think those lines very often get blurred. And where I try and come in is try to kind of help professional understand what can we do before we just provide a device or if a device is warranted, what can we do to make adjustments, Making sure that we're being culturally sensitive, we're being identification sensitive, language sensitive, visually sensitive, and making sure that all the professionals involved are present. Especially, as you know, in this field, we always have to be so pro into interprofessional collaboration, interdisciplinary collaboration, and making sure that we are always asking for help and what can we do? How can we be better and kind of thinking outside the box for our kiddos? So I think this is a really great example example of where we need to do that and to kind of just be open to that and open to collaborating and open to the fact that we may not know everything about this population in terms of aac.

00:19:19 Rachel Madel
Yeah. And I think that where I've come into, you know, some, we'll call it challenge, I guess, or trickiness is that, you know, this population, depending on just family preferences, it really can dictate one way or another, like which path you go down. So can you kind of speak to the different paths with this population? Obviously there's an AAC path, but there also could be a path that doesn't include aac, or it's a modified version of aac. And so I'd love to kind of just like dive in to the deep end with those.

00:19:54 Quinn Kelly
Yeah, definitely. I think before even getting to that point, I think it's looking at, like, who could possibly be a candidate for AAC who is deaf or hard of hearing. And so I've worked with the organization Language first, myself and two of the professionals who have extensive knowledge with AAC and who have worked with varied populations of weep kind of come up with our own criteria or, like who we think or just different things as to what we look for, as to why they would need it. So some of those things are, when we're looking at our communicators is like cognition. Do we see cognitive delays? Do we see possibly another diagnosis? So are we looking at deaf plus or deaf with disabilities? Are we looking at autism? Are we looking at cerebral palsy? Usher syndrome, which is two different types of Usher syndrome that can be linked with visual components, physical accessibility, Charge syndrome, Noonan Syndrome. Again, when we're looking at different types of diagnosis that as a comorbidity, things can get a little bit tricky. Looking at fine motor, again, access to the device. When we do have our visual communicators who are using ASL to communicate.

00:21:12 Chris Bugaj
What.

00:21:12 Quinn Kelly
Is their access method? Is there access with their hands? That are going to be a little bit difficult. Also looking at gross motor as well. So if all these things are impacting their ability to communicate with sign language, I then look at. Let's look at AAC and more of a multimodal, I guess, other things besides just signing, looking at multimodal, multi, you know, that kind of a thing. And then just in general, I like to make sure that my kids have an L1.

00:21:45 Rachel Madel
Define what L1 means.

00:21:46 Quinn Kelly
So an L1 is your first language. So if you are a. So for me, as someone who's bilingual, my L1, my first language is spoken English. My second language, which is my L2, is sign language, American Sign Language. Because I can say sign language and I can mean Austin from, you know, Australia, or I could mean, you know, another. No, there is not one type of sign language. There's hundreds of different types of sign languages. So my. My L1 personally is spoken English and my L2 is American Sign Language. That is different types of L's when we're talking about that, talking about the language. So the different paths that could be that a communicator might use, I think there's just so many different ones. And something that I kind of feed off onto is that communication might look a little bit different, and that's okay. So I think as professionals, we're so used to kind of like trying to color in the lines or like, you know, focusing on what we know. And I think this kind of puts everything on its axis. So the different paths that we can kind of look at very often are we're going to be using ASL and aac. So like, that's kind of the bubble start with that one. So different communicators could be like, maybe they're signing their response and then maybe, you know, as the SLP or the communication partner, you use the device back and you kind of going back and forth and that there's no expectation. Like if I'm always providing and modeling with my AEC device and then reinforcing with sign or, you know, reinforcing. If you're in a school, maybe you have an interpreter with you or whatever the situation may Be that both the modality and the support are going to kind of be working in tandem to always feed off of each other. So sometimes I get the question of so, but then what do I do about their goals? How do I follow it? And so I always like to say use and. Or so and. Or AAC or ASL and or aac, ASL and spoken language. So or like I put in parentheses like total communication or that I put like communication modality of preference. And then in the short term goals, I will then have a short term goal for each possible outcome of communication just so that I can kind of better track it a little bit and see like what is the preferred communication modality of, you know, my, my patient, my client, my student. So that's kind of like what I look at the different ways. So you can kind of do the just focusing on two and then going back and forth and just being open to the fact that like I will emphasize. So like if they sign something, I then model it back. But I think very often professionals kind of get into this hold of like, well they, you know, they use it on the device. Now I'm going to make them sign it or then they signed it, now I'm going to make them use the device. You don't ask me to repeat myself when I say so. I think it's just respecting that you're the one who's going to be then emphasizing or copying and doing that. There are so many different, I think ways and percentages of use. It doesn't always have to be all or nothing. So I think kind of being open to that. And just in terms of aac, I think a very common question I get in terms of a problem with a path that sometimes happens in public schools is that you have a kid who is deaf or hard of hearing, who there might not be a teacher of the deaf TOD services and they're struggling academically and so they're like, we want to give them an AAC device. Sometimes that's where I've come in, where it's like, well, have we attempted to provide them with a professional's ad? Do they have an interpreter? Do they have ASL services? If they don't have ASL services, but their kid who is deaf or hard of hearing, who might be using cochlear implants and hearing aids aids or hearing aids, what have we done to support them otherwise to help their communication? Because sometimes when we're just going right to a device, it's like people don't realize that it's a lifestyle choice. That's how I kind of say it. It's not a quick fix as we all know. So it's like, why are we then going to not try and find a solution by maybe making environmental changes, academic changes to support communication versus them being like, let's give them a device. So I think sometimes that is a path that AAC evaluators will ask me. This is what I'm running into. I don't really know what to do ethically. So I think sometimes that ends up being a path that people go down and is not always going to give them the results that they think. So I think again circling back to we want to make sure that we have done everything that if there's something else going wrong, is there a communication disorder within their spoken language, within their sign language language? Is there something, is there another diagnosis? So that's happening that is impeding their inability to have like full access to like their cochlear implants or hearing aids. So I think that can sometimes be like let's make sure we cover all of our bases before we decide to give a device. And very often with these different paths we are looking at a more visual perspective. So one of my favorite things I love talking about when I do speak with other professionals is like how can we now take something that is more auditory focused and use now for like now visually reinforce it versus auditorily reinforce it. So things that I like to do or like I work on with my students is I like to like now we're going to like you created a message. We're raising our hand. There's like a button that like I'll, I'll buy on Amazon that they'll click on the back of it. That means it's bleed, it's beeping. They'll show around the visually that they have a message instead of like it gives them the feedback, it gives someone else the feedback. Because our deaf and hard of hearing users who may not hear if they click the sentence, is the volume up? Is the volume down? That's also like another component if we have a, you know, a cognitive delay, like do they remember all these multi step things like did my checking, my checking here, Is it popping up? Is it blinking? Is it doing all these things? So I've used like a red button that I bought from Amazon that will blink and that alerts other people having something on their desk that will swivel. So they turn it around and they show and it will turn like 360. So I really like Doing that and then connecting it to Bluetooth, to their hearing aids or cochlear implants. When you do run into that, though, and if they are. If the student does benefit from the auditory feedback, you know, that we can go into the settings and change the rate, change the pitch and the tone to make sure that auditorily it's benefiting them. But as well as that, like, again, we're still using those strategies because, like, they're hearing the feedback if the child, you know, is signing, speaking, and using the device, but that their communication partners don't. So sometimes they're like, oh, I hear it. But then they don't realize that other people are not catching the message. So I think it's trying to find different strategies and different tools of where they're positioned in the classroom and things like that that are really, really important. When we are thinking about AAC and the different paths of these students, that there's different supports that can back each of these paths up.

00:28:52 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I mean, something that you shared, which I feel like really resonates is kind of. Of if we're thinking about the kind of criterion that we would be looking at when we're deciding, should we try AAC or not? I think one of the big things that maybe not every professional kind of considers is that there's a huge cultural and community aspect of American Sign Language. And for a child that is deaf or hard of hearing, you know, being able to integrate into that community is really an important thing. And if we can really promote that kind of, to your point of, like, well, in a school, like, we don't have access to, you know, the right type of supports. And so, like, we'll just do this. And it's like, well, that comes at, like, such a significant cost if you're thinking about an individual, an individual's life and their ability to integrate with a community and to be able to connect fully with that community. And so I do think that these decisions come very weighted or should. And so really connecting with the team and sometimes even educating the parents, because the parents don't really understand the levity of a decision like this. It's kind of like, well, just whatever you guys think, right? And it's like, well, you know, we really need to be informed as educators to help our families understand. And if we go down this path, this is what it looks like. When we go down this path, this is what it looks like. Here's what it looks like. If we're trying a few different things, and how are we measuring success? And what types of things are we thinking about to determine whether or not this might be a successful path? And so I think just to kind of underscore what you already said, I think that's a really important piece to all this, is making sure our families understand the different layers of support and really advocating on their behalf so that they feel like they were a part of the decision making process and they feel really good about the decision that, you know, the team came to.

00:30:52 Quinn Kelly
Definitely. I mean, something that I feel like many people don't, really aren't really aware of is that nine out of 10 families that have a child that is born deaf and hard of hearing, it's the first time, it's the first deaf or hard of hearing person they've met. It's very often when they're born to these hearing born to hearing families. It's, they're, they're not, they don't know and it's not for, you know, it's just something that's new. It's something that it's, you know, like, I try and equate it to some of my family's, like, imagine if your child was born and they only were able to speak Russian. What do you do? Like, you know, I mean, like, they're what, what options are we doing? What are like trying again, like putting in a different mindset. And so my fans will laugh at me and they're like, oh yeah, I see what you're getting there. So it's like making sure that we are aware and also just trying to be patient with families in their gaining access to knowledge of, like, do they want their child to be a part of the deaf and hard of community? Deaf and hard of hearing community while they're, you know, aided or not aided? Do they want them to sign? Do they want them to not sign? Do they want them to do be a multimodal communicator? Like, what does that look like in terms of their family unit as their child's identity, as the parent's individual identity with this child? Like, I think it's like a big like root system that we have to really be supportive of as professionals. And sometimes like, I know, you know, so many my family, they're like, whatever you think is best. And sometimes if a professional doesn't know, then we're guiding them. Like, we're thinking what's best for us. Oh, it's easier for us. And it's like we have to think in something in their shoes. And sometimes that is a little bit harder. It Might take more time. And very often when I, you know, I'm working in private practice or I just have met families in different, you know, instances where I'm like, they're the only child in their district with, you know, with a hearing loss. And it's like, what does that look like? And I have a kiddo right now where the mom is, you know, kind of teetering, like, what do I do if I put her in a mainstream school? Like, will she have that advocacy? Will she have anyone that understands, like when her hearing aids die, like if they get wet, if like the battery, like, you know, helping her child navigate through her own education and then while advocating for herself at such a young age. So I think it's very complex and we have to be very open to the fact that there are multiple paths that exist, not just the ones that are easier for us. And also just kind of including also that families speak other languages at home. One of the first families that I've ever worked with, they spoke Spanish at home, primarily Spanish speaking family. And so while we were, you know, doing different trials and feature matching, like, that was a really big concern of the family. Like they wanted the app to be able to have a trilingual feature of the ability to have, you know, Spanish be included because the father did not speak English. So it's like, okay, like what are we going to do? How will this, you know, be set? Like, making sure that it's going to be Bluetooth connected, but then he knows how to navigate it and like figuring out different things. And also like the literacy aspect of like we in just so much, so much, so much decisions for this family and making sure that I knew as much as I could and being able to provide lots of different options for them and getting out of my comfort zone, to be honest, I mean, it was something I was kind of like, wow, this is interesting. And like, what can I do and how can I teach myself and ask others and kind of going back to like, as SLPs, we do interact with so many different professionals and being open to that and that we may not know the answer and that taking on this new information and trying to learn ourselves while like integrating it within what we do now. Big fun picture.

00:34:33 Rachel Madel
I also want to kind of share a little bit. You talked about this population also having concomitant things going on, whether that's autism or some type of rare incidence diagnosis. And so I'm guessing that that puts a different spin or a different lens in which you kind of look at a student and And I'm just curious, from your lens. What are the things. That we really want to be looking out for in order to determine how to best support a student, especially if they do have kind of other diagnoses at play?

00:35:14 Quinn Kelly
That's a great question. So for kiddos who are deaf and hard of hearing that are candidates for aac, I will never forget this. I worked with a boy who was 23. I worked with him for a year. He was at a school for the deaf. And it wasn't, I think, a match for what the family was looking for. And then they moved into an autism program school. And the mom said to me, one of our last sessions working together was that people don't understand the hurt, how she views her son and how her family views her son as they see the autism diagnosis first and deafness second. And I think that blew the lid off of. For me professionally, because I was like, I. Like I was doing that professionally. Like, I was more looking at, like, the different strategies in one diagnosis direction versus another, and kind of bringing deafness in underneath and looking at ASL and visual and that type of thing. But I was, for lack of a better words, like, treating him with autism in mind and just having the mom kind of say that. Where, like, I look at his. His primary diagnosis is, is he is on the spectrum. And that's where, like, she's like, I feel that schools don't see that because they're like, oh, he's deaf. And like, that's kind of it. And she's like, no. Like, he is an autistic boy who. Who has an interpreter and who, like, she's like, that's how I view my son. I don't see him as a kid who really needs to be in school for the deaf because he's a primary. His primary mode of communication is through aac, not through spoken language, not through sign language. She's like, maybe receptively understanding sign language, but expressing massively, it's AAC across the board. And so she's like, I don't think people get that. They just have their opinion. And I was just, like, I was just in. I was enamored. I thought that was such a. Like a. Something I will forever carry with me. And I really thank the mom for having, like, that. That. Just for her identifying that and be able to use that for advocacy for her son. So I think that when we are looking at kids who are candidates for. Who are deaf and hard of hearing kids that are candidates for AAC who are kids or Deaf plus or deaf with disabilities. I think it's really important to see the person holistically, to look at them from head to toe and what really matches them. Hearing loss is a spectrum, as we know, with other things, and it's not just a one size fits all. So did they need more of a vis approach? Do they need more of like. Like, what types of reinforcements? Or like, do they need more, like, hands on? Do they need more modeling? Do they need more this? Do they need like. And I think being open to that with whatever their diagnosis is. I know I had one kiddo who had Usher syndrome, and I worked very, very closely with a tbi, a teacher of the visually impaired, and I never took one. I never moved a toe out of line with, without consulting her with aac because access was so important visually for her, because she used a visual language. So I can't now do what I'm doing unless I know what visually she can see and what visually she's accessing. And then also considering the occupational therapist, because is it direct access? We now, like, eye gazes at the question for her, like, what can we use a stylist? Can we use this or, like, in sort of positioning? And then like. Like, it was such a cool experience. So I think that when we are looking at different, you know, with communicators, with additional things and happening and we're working with. I think looking back at what that parent said, is that like, where. I hate saying it like a percentage, but, like, which one takes, you know, which one are we looking at more in terms of like. Or don't look at it like that. Look at the whole. The child as a whole and just kind of be like, not labeling something and just kind of like looking at as like, it's a support work. Like, we don't need to put it in a. In a box, in a closet, in a drawer. It doesn't need to be labeled and just kind of like putting it with the child versus anything else.

00:39:22 Rachel Madel
Yeah. And I think that there comes some really strong questions that you can ask a family to kind of understand, similar to your family sharing. Like, I look at autism as the primary diagnosis. There's so many beautiful reflective questions that we can ask. Ask family members to start thinking about that and thinking about what really matters and what they feel is one of the most important things or some of the most important things and allows us to kind of help prioritize because it can get quite messy when we're thinking about all the different types of approaches we could take. And I think getting really clear on what the family is valuing and what they, you know, what path feels like the right path for them, we can kind of of help support that journey by asking the right questions. And I think that that's something that is definitely part of my clinical work. But I think particularly in a situation like this, it's like we want to really understand what the family finds important and how they view their child and what outcomes they'd like to see and really showing all the different kind of paths that we could use to potentially get there. I. I'm thinking about a specific case that I had. This child was autistic and just had gotten cochlear implants. He was probably four. And it was a very tricky case because he was also right after the cochlear implants was very much going down a path of auditory verbal therapy. And I'm just curious. I won't share what happened in this situation. I'll circle back to it.

00:41:01 Quinn Kelly
It.

00:41:02 Rachel Madel
But I'd love to kind of hear your thoughts on these approaches, because, in a nutshell, the auditory verbal therapist was very against AAC and any type of visual support that I was giving during my sessions. And so it just made it really tricky to collaborate. And again, especially with that diagnosis of autism, like, okay, but we know that, like, autism, like, visual supports are so helpful. And there was definitely receptive language challenges going on. And it was a very tricky case, to say the least, for me to navigate. Super curious about your thoughts there and ways that we can figure out how to work alongside of some of these approaches that maybe feel like they're in. Direct kind of opposition, if you will. With the approaches that we're taking with aac.

00:41:53 Quinn Kelly
No, definitely. And I think you described about half of the different inquiries that I get when I'm brought in doing evaluations in that sort of case where they might reach out to me because of my background knowledge. And I come in and I'm like, ooh. And I feel. And I see the stickiness and like, okay. And I think that's where us professionally have the more of the understanding. I think it's where, like, yes, abt, auditory verbal therapy, listening, spoken language, listle. I think those are really great techniques and supports that are typically guided by speech language pathologists, teachers of the deaf, early interventionists. But I think we are, you know, part of our professional label is speech, but then there also is language. And like, a lot of the times the professionals who are, you know, might be doing that are not always like, language pathologists and understanding that, like, language is not just one thing. And one of my favorite examples is like, you know, when I work with kids and like, I knock on my tape, my desk, I am using, yes, I hear that, but my language is telling me it's light, it's hard. Where could it be? Is it leaning on something that's my language telling me, not that my ears are identifying something. So, like, that's kind of the example I like to use. And it is really tricky because again, like, we're looking at the family, like when autism is evolved and then a diagnosis is involved, like typical, you know, black and white. ABT is not going to always work because we. There is something else being involved. It becomes a mod podge. We kind of flip this, you know, we flip the desk, we flip the, you know, what we know. And I think sometimes, like, those professionals are like, this is what I know and that's it. And like, they might. Might not have training, like, I'll be a devil's advocate, and they might not have the training and have the background to work with kids who are not just, you know, kids who are working on ABT and nothing else. And so it becomes really tricky. And so I kind of like to pull rank sometimes and just be like, this is like, you know, this is my background. I have the knowledge of language and like, what this is. And, you know, kids who present with this diagnosis, you know, can sometimes, you know, benefit from these sort of things. And like, yes, this works, but. But we need to know if this isn't working. We need to bring other things in so we're not missing time in a really important age that they're missing all this time because we're trying to work on an approach that's not sufficing the speech and language needs of this child. So that's kind of. Sometimes where I go into is the longer that we delay these sort of visual supports, I think it just. It just keeps adding on to it, and then the delay, the gap gets bigger and bigger. So that's kind of the approach I like to take with it. And I think it gets hard because parents, at the end of the day, they, you know, very oftentimes, like, end rightfully. So they. They do want their child to communicate, and sometimes they don't have a full picture as to what that looks like. So I think having different options and like, you know, kind of reiterating what we always love to say with people who, you know, are AC enthusiasts, like, it's not going to hinder spoken Language development, it's not going to hinder language development in general. It support it. And I think trying to find different examples and sometimes also like connection over compliance and trying to find those different ways to get the families in their buy in as to why this would work and also be like, give me a chance. You gave them a chance, now give me my chance. Like you got your free trial with them, now give me my free, you know, my two week free trial. So I think sometimes like that's kind of like my selling point with families. And it can be really tricky because again, it is like it's the family's choice and maybe they've had that relationship with the abt person for longer than us. So like, are they, you know, maybe they work in the home or maybe like it is somebody who has more of a connection with the family or like in that type of thing. So it gets where like you're now trying to like enter in on a relationship and kind of like flip everything. So it's definitely not an easy.

00:46:01 Rachel Madel
Not easy, no, totally. And like, I think that's that with my client that I referenced, it was just so obvious that while they were doing really great work in really like honing his ear and his hearing and like really training that he just became like, just very echolic and just like was not. This was not helping support his language development. It was like helping his speech, right? Like, it was helping him learn how to listen and watch the someone's mouth and like imitate. But it was not doing anything for his language. And he just was like so frustrated, like he could not communicate what was going on. And it was just like there had to be kind of a place for both. And I was totally willing to like, figure out ways to kind of mold in. And I was like, teach me what you do with him. I'll like do like five to ten minutes of my session with him. Like, I don't know, like, I'm not, I'm not trained in this, but I'm willing to learn and just, you know, I think you, you said it perfectly. It's just like people know what they know and anything outside of that can feel like, well, I'm not really sure, but like I do know what I do know and like I'm gonna do that. And it's like that type of thinking is just so myopic in a lot of ways and not really doing justice to the kids that are in front of us because just because like you usually do things a certain way with this type of Kid. It's like when we have new information and, and more importantly, information that's showcasing this approach in and of itself is not working entirely. Like, we need to kind of go back to the drawing board. We need to collaborate with other professionals. And yeah, it's just like, is a really tricky situation. And I think it's like, it's kind of similar to how, you know, our AAC users sometimes are working with an SLP that focuses primarily on speech. Right. Especially if they have motor speech things going on. But even so, like, our team articulation challenges, it's like, how do we do both things? Because when I am trying to support language, I'm really like, you know, teaching language and giving space and really, like, allowing a child to really, like, come to some type of communication opportunity that is organic and intrinsically motivated. Conversely, if I'm working on speech and motor speech as an example, it's like, look at my mouth, mouth. Say what I say. Like, say exactly how I do it. Activate mirror neurons. And so it, like, it really is in direct opposition. And so it's like, it's a balancing act. Like, we, you know, I totally understand when families want to kind of go down a path of enhancing or improving verbal speech, especially if it's like, you know, a child has a proxy of speech and there's no other diagnoses going on. It's like, yeah, like, really good speech therapy is important, but even that is tricky to kind of balance. Like, okay, how do we pause and not have kids just staring at our mouth and waiting for us to tell them what to say and really practice those language opportunities. Right. So it's such a balancing act. And I think it's even trickier when we're talking about death and hard of hearing populations, just because it's just this extra layer of messiness that it's hard to kind of weave through.

00:49:08 Quinn Kelly
Yeah. And the messiness, I think, just comes from sometimes just professionals not always being aware, having the exposure. Like, sometimes when people reach out to me, like, this is my first case and I've been in this field for 20 years, and I'm like, okay. So, like, it's. Sometimes it's. There's so much happening at one time for everybody that it's like trying to make those decisions can be really hard.

00:49:27 Rachel Madel
Totally, totally. Okay. We talked a little bit about, like, some of the strategies I think about, and I definitely want to, like, double click on that because I feel like that's a really kind of actionable step that someone can take away from this podcast episode, you talked about potentially Bluetooth connections to a child's hearing aids. What are the some other things that like if you're not in this space and you have a student on your caseload and you're like, I really don't know how to support them, what are some other kind of like hidden gems that someone can take away?

00:49:58 Quinn Kelly
Definitely. There's a free resource that I have made with Language first that does feature matching and talks about all different types of, I think like, you know, feature meshing things to look at for deaf and hard of hearing kids. So you guys can check it out if you want. But some of those things, things that, that we do mention are also just like symbols in terms of like AAC icons. Like symbol Sticks has a fantastic repertoire of sign language symbols. So if you want to be able to have like the sign replace the, the visual or if you will, like how on touch chat, like there's more in the corner like that symbol Sticks. And so they do have a very, I think they have a plentiful, plentiful library. But like we want to be careful. Like there was one touch time I remember I was like going through trying to find a different sign for something and I was looking at this sign that was using your middle finger and it was like starting at the belly button area and then it was going up and I was like, what is this? And I showed a couple different colleagues and like it's feel. So feel is using your middle finger. It's on your chest. So taking, taking a 2A 3D language and making it 2D sometimes can like things get a little bit fuzzy. But a really great thing that some apps do have is the ability to make GIFs out of icons, which is really cool. And also uploading your own video is really important for when you're doing sign names. So like you can have a video that will just, you like can upload it to YouTube and you can then have it save. And like when you click on the button it can be pop up and it's like someone signing it could be that person signing it if you want to do it that way or it could be a phrase if you're working with GOP kids who are using ASL and AC and kind of having like signed phrases. And it's really helpful like things like that because it can be something that again you're, you know, connecting the identity. Also like something that I really like to do is on the homepage of any kids AC device that uses AC and ASL is A I need an interpreter button, like a help button. So sometimes like some of my kids who are out in the community who are, you know, at jobs or maybe like, they don't unfortunately don't always have a consistent interpreter with them on their job sites or when they're doing like volunteer work or they're doing like, more like job coaching things. It's unfortunate and it's a true factor in the world with that type of staffing. And so like, I need an interpreter. Like, if something happens, they get hurt, the person, maybe they're, you know, the manager doesn't know what to do. And it's like, I need an interpreter or like, and that kind of a thing. So I think that's important in terms of advocacy that for that child. Just because it's on the homepage, like, if something, you know, they're not able to kind of like process that. You need to go into my social, I need to go into helping, like going into folder. It's on the phone homes page and that's it. It's like an automatic button. So I kind of like that. For some of my kiddos, there's a bunch of different things in terms of like, just different. Like, are you looking at like a motor planning vs folder? For some of our kids who, you know, for, yes, they're using a visual language, but the visual attention piece is so important because kids who are deaf and hard of hearing that are growing up in a hearing culture, hearing world, they, you know, us, we don't even realize it. Like in, you know, you and I are staring at each other, but I'm then looking at corner, I'm looking up and looking around. Our language doesn't require us to hold visual attention. So for kids, that model is not always there. We're in a visual language. They need to hold visual attention in order to communicate with their communication partner. So those types of communication patterns that like, that is very. It sometimes can be late developing. So having the understanding of like, are we looking at something that has like less hits to an icon or motor, you know, like the motor planning folder lamp look, what are we looking at in order, like, how is their visual attention, how is it developed and things like that. So I think that is something I like to factor in for my kiddos because they don't always realize, like I need to continuously, like it's, you know, it's a little bit different when they're using the AC device. So a couple of those things I like to kind of keep in the back of my Mind.

00:54:01 Rachel Madel
You just blew my mind, Quinn, with, like, this idea of, like, sustained visual attention. Like, what an important piece of information to think about. Because you're exactly right. Like, in order to sign back and forth, or at least even capture a message, like, someone needs to be able to sustain visual attention. And like, so often, so many of our kids, granted, many of our young kids haven't acquired that skill or practiced that skill enough yet, but even some of our autistic individuals, like, that's a skill that's just very challenging, even across kind of the lifespan. So, wow. Like, so simple, yet, like, so, so relevant. And, you know, oftentimes there's conversations around, should we do sign? Like, right as, like, we're deciding, like, should we do sign or should we do aac? And, like, I love kind of talking about the pros and cons, right? It's like, well, one of the, like, downsides of sign language is that it's not universally understood. It's like another language that some. Someone has to speak, basically. So the question becomes, like, how can we incorporate that but also try to support individuals with being as understood by as many people as possible? I feel like that visual attention piece is another kind of consideration. Again, I think the younger the child, the more kind of leniency or grace we can give them because we know that that type of a skill develops more over time. But such an important piece to the puzzle is, like, if you don't have that visual attention, then, like, you. You are kind of setting kids up for not really being successful when we know that's such an important piece of this puzzle.

00:55:38 Quinn Kelly
Definitely. And I think also being aware of the type of learner that your kid is. I had one kid who was the most insane peripheral learner I have ever encountered. She would be looking over here, but then she was able to kind of see, like, 180 degrees over here. And I was like, I wish I had that type of, like, ability. And so, like, the teacher oftentimes would be like, she's not looking. She's not paying attention, but. But, like, she's modeling, using her device, but fully paying attention to what's going on with the lesson. And, like, she was deaf who was using AC and asl. So, like, again, like, sometimes, like, even as, you know, professionals who, you know, adult deaf professionals who were, you know, working with some of these kids, like, they're like, again, our language, our cultural understanding is that you need to be looking at me. But for her, that's not something that, you know, she didn't Require that. But she still was gaining all the information. And so it was like such an interesting kind of thing to. To be a part of and to witness how each kid has their own form of visual attention that we don't always need to, like, you know, similarly, with kids on the spectrum with eye contact, like, we have to work on eye contact and make it up. I hear that one more time. I'm like, so. And I think it's similarly where, like, I then bring. I also like kind of backtracking a little bit. Like when we were talking about just even like, access in general. Like, I like to bring in my pts. I love physical therapists because. Because when we're thinking of, like, the zone of signing, you know, typically signing, I'm going to be signing in a certain area within, you know, a box in a certain area that's accessible to my learners. Some of my kids. If there's, you know, weakness in the shoulders, weakness in the forearms, you know, there's heaviness, if there's, you know, one limb, you know, what are we looking at? And so working on how we can find this zone and like, strengthening certain muscles or what's the Dexter like the. Again, I'm not a physical therapist, so I feel like dexterity is not the right word. But, like, in terms of where we need to be in the zone of signing, I one kid who would literally sign, like down by his hip, and I'm like, buddy, bring it up here. So again. And like, so working with the PT on that in terms of like, okay, like, so if we're looking at where we're signing, our certain types of hand shapes or locations on the body. So, like, you know, sign language is made up of different hand shapes that, you know, create different signs and the locations as well. There's different. There's five parameters of sign and location and handshake protein of them. And so, you know, something where, like, we're using. So take holding out your hand and bringing your thumb across the midline of your dominant hand. And then now I'm going to put it on the top of my head around the middle of my forehead, and I'm going to do. Boy. So bring my thumb and against my other four fingers and I'm kind of bring them up and down this boy. So for my one kid, he had a really hard time. I was working with the OT and the PT because he could not bring his thumb across midline and also bringing it up, bringing. Bringing his shoulder up and rotating his shoulder up and keeping it there so we had to do adaptive signs, and that became such a. Like, this could take years. And now we're. He's missing out on, you know, development of language. You know, again, three of us work together for years, but, like, that's when I brought in AC because, like, it is accessible at all times for him when he has it, because there were certain signs that we're adapting unless other people know what they are and where are we bringing them to, and if. Then he has an interpreter and, like, that person now has to, like, learn his signs and, like, what he's using within the school. And it was like, a whole big thing. And we were kind of like, the three of us working together, being like, what do we. What do we do? And how do we support this kiddo? And we were kind of. Let's look at AAC and kind of, like, bring that into the. Into the picture, which was really great and super successful, which was awesome. Yeah.

00:59:14 Rachel Madel
I mean, there's just so many different considerations. I feel like kind of the takeaway here is you have to really look at the individual in front of you and really kind of go to the drawing board with all the professionals on the team sometimes to really get a clear picture as to, like, what is the. What is the best modality and the strongest modality. And, you know, I'm such a big believer in, like, kids will show us, Kids will reveal that. And so, like, being really curious and really seeing, like, okay, if we've introduced some signs, if we just introducing my ac, like, what are kids gravitating towards, too? It's like, a huge piece to the puzzle. So I think that it's just, like, such a important thing to think about, like, how do we collaborate? How do we get curious? How do we step back and observe what's happening and then pivot when we need to? Which it sounds like with this kid, it was kind of like, okay, like, signing. Yikes. Like, we're not seeing the motor movements that we need in order to really be successful. We're only doing. Doing, you know, signs that not everyone understands. So, like, how do we, you know, introduce a modality of language that's just more accessible? Basically.

01:00:23 Quinn Kelly
It's. It's definitely. There's. There's so many different things. And especially recently, almost a year ago last September, Asha changed the standings on that. They. It was a little bit. Two different contradicting statements that, like, existed in flotation. Asha having position statements on the American Sign Language is a language while also also calling it a form of aac and last September they revised it. And so they now identify American Sign Language as a language and no longer as a form of no tech aac, which I think really helped clarify a lot of things for professionals in terms of writing reports, in terms of asking for services. When you're looking at like an interpreter, you know, they'd be like, are we filing this under assistive technology? And like, no, like, you mean like, are we looking at a teacher of the deaf? We're looking at a deaf mentor for some of our littles, looking at, you know, an ASL teacher, someone who is deaf and who has, you know, that their native language is sign language and making sure that child is being taught by a native signer and not by somebody who, you know, I know 100 signs and that kind of a thing. So I think that really helped clarify a lot of things as well for professionals in just the ASL world. But as well as the AAC and ASL will just kind of like where things lie. So I think that was really helpful too.

01:01:36 Rachel Madel
Totally. Before we wrap up, Quinn, tell me a little bit about some research that you were a part of that just came out.

01:01:43 Quinn Kelly
Yeah, I have been working with an amazing woman who is based in Australia, Queensland, Australia, who we just published a paper that just came out two weeks ago. Absolutely, you know, thrilled that this is out there. A one of, one of a kind kind of paper, just talking about how AAC and ASL can kind of work together, together to support communication. It was published by the Annals of the Deaf, which is a publication of Gallaudet University. So it's just so great that that's out there and I highly recommend everyone to kind of take a peek. It's just something that I'm so proud of and I feel like I'm done. I've published, I've done what I wanted to do. So this topic has really been the forefront of my professional career. And just what I've been doing and you know, who I've been working with and just seeing something that I've been so passionate about and trying to help create, you know, guidelines and tools and things like that to like see it come to life on paper and just like being backed with research, I think is such a wonderful thing to go. Yes, yes, yes. And like that, you know, like what you're saying is true, which is really wonderful. And it has had such positive feedback in like the research community so far. And that also spans the idea of it's two different visual languages as well, that this is circulating in Australia and it's circulating here. So I think that's such a cool thing as well. Like, you know, you know, do you want to trade places? Like, I'll go to Australia anytime. So I mean, like, I'll take, I'll take Australia over Jersey anytime. So, yeah, it's been a really fun experience and such a long, long time coming, you know, just seeing all this happen. So I really love it.

01:03:20 Rachel Madel
Yeah, I mean, it's really exciting and I feel like it kind of underscores the importance of more research in this area because, you know, we know that so many students can benefit from aac and I feel like the more kind of guidance we have as professionals on that intersection, I think just the easier this becomes. And like anything else, it's just like we need a little bit more information guiding our clinical work. And so I'm really excited that you were a part of that. Would love if you could share the link and we'll put it in our show notes for those of you who are like, oh my gosh, Quinn, I love her. Like, how do I access all of the things asl, aac, deaf of hard of hearing populations. Where can people find you so they.

01:04:00 Quinn Kelly
Can find it on Language first website? It's languagefirst.org everything that I mentioned today is free. It's all, you know, made free there. I do have the wonderful ability to, I do help make some things that go out monthly. So we're doing something for AAC Awareness Month. We have a, a couple new, like parent handouts are going to be coming out in the next month for September. So I love working on those that kind of pop out and go into circulation. So it's just been a really fun journey and again, they're all fully accessible. So like that's the, the great thing is that everyone can kind of see them and it's not like they're, they're keyed up somewhere. So which I, I love.

01:04:34 Rachel Madel
Yeah, definitely would recommend following Quinn on social media. I feel like you share some really great information there and we will definitely link to all, all of those things on the show. Notes. Quinn, thank you so much for coming on today and sharing all of your wisdom.

01:04:46 Quinn Kelly
Thank you so much for having me.

01:04:48 Rachel Madel
For talking with tech. I'm Rachel Madle, joined today by Quinn Kelly. Thank you guys so much for listening and we'll talk to you next week.