Episode 350: Katie Roettele: STEM, AAC, and the Power of "Making" for Inclusion

This week, Chris interviews Katie Roettele! Katie Roettele is an occupational therapist and assistive technology consultant based in Michigan, specializing in AAC and universal design for learning. She is passionate about using STEM and maker tools like Makey Makey and 3D printing to create accessible, hands-on learning experiences and DIY assistive technology. 

Key Ideas This Week:

Early and Consistent AAC Use Matters – Introducing augmentative and alternative communication (AAC) early helps children develop both language and confidence. It’s not about “waiting until they’re ready,” but about giving them tools to communicate right away.

Partnership Between Families and Professionals – Successful AAC implementation depends on collaboration. Families bring deep knowledge of their child, while therapists and educators provide strategies and system support. When these perspectives merge, AAC use grows naturally.

Focus on Real Communication, Not Just Devices – AAC is about building authentic communication opportunities, not just mastering the buttons on a device. Embedding AAC into daily routines, play, and social interactions fosters meaningful language growth.

Transcript of the Episode

Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.

00:00:08 Chris Bugaj
Welcome to Talking with Tech. My name is Chris Bugaj and I'm here with my wife, Dr. Bugaj. How's it going, Melissa?

00:00:14 Melissa Bugaj
It's good. How are you?

00:00:15 Chris Bugaj
So last time we talked about the special ed advisory committee, you busted into the closet and, and said, I have something to say. But something we didn't talk about is a program that also won a SEAC award this year. That, that program is called Robots for Everyone. And I created that program a couple years ago and now it's expanded and gone to multiple schools. What it is in general is students who are learning language using communication devices are participating in computer science experiences, mostly with robots. Not always. It could be just coding, it could be some low tech things as well. But robots are cool, right? And so there's virtual robots we can use. So there's all sorts of different options of what it can be, but it's essentially using robots to help teach language. And you actually won a SEAC award in the past. Your school won a SEAC award in the past for the robots, for everyone. In fact, you were the first one in our district to win an award. This upcoming award ceremony is going to have the second team that has ever won, the second school that's ever won. So can you tell us a little about what's. What was Robots for everyone or what is robots for everyone at your school?

00:01:27 Melissa Bugaj
Well, I just want to give a shout out because number one, you did an awesome job creating this. It really just brings students together and it gets everyone really excited to be together, to communicate, to learn. It's unbelievable to watch.

00:01:45 Chris Bugaj
Computer science is for everyone.

00:01:46 Melissa Bugaj
It is.

00:01:47 Chris Bugaj
And languages for everyone. It really is bring those two worlds.

00:01:50 Melissa Bugaj
Together in many different ways. But my instructional technology facilitator, my dean and my computer science facilitator, they took this on and they ran with it. And I will say that, you know, we paired our General Ed fourth and fifth graders, a group of them, with our K through 2 ought students, and we taught them things like how to use the AAC devices these children were using. How can we communicate? What can we do with the robots to show off what they know? And I will tell you, the robots are a tool that I was being taught by eight and nine year olds because it's not innate to me. But they just picked them up and they were going and it was unbelievable. The language, the skills, the excitement.

00:02:45 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, fun. It's fun to be at school.

00:02:46 Melissa Bugaj
It's so fun. And it was highly successful. And we actually put on like a showcase of what we had been learning. And the superintendent came and the, you know, directors came, and they were just. They were taken by how amazing these students were with each other and how they were communicating with each other, the laughter and really the understanding of one another. I think one of my favorite moments was when I went in and I had a student who had an AAC device.

00:03:25 Katie Roettele
And.

00:03:26 Melissa Bugaj
And he is. He, you know, he went to another school this year. However, last year, he was paired up with a young man who didn't talk very much. He was a quiet student. And this general ed student really communicated well on the device because my student with autism taught him how to use his device. So this student would communicate back and forth and then really kind of found this confidence of, oh, I have another way to communicate.

00:03:59 Chris Bugaj
Yeah.

00:04:00 Melissa Bugaj
Because I'm really shy.

00:04:01 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, yeah, yeah. AACs for everyone, too.

00:04:03 Melissa Bugaj
It is.

00:04:03 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that. And congratulations to the school that won.

00:04:08 Melissa Bugaj
They're an amazing school, too.

00:04:10 Chris Bugaj
Now, who else is interested in computer science is our interview today with Katie Wrotley. I won't spoil it, but Katie had an interesting shirt that she wore once when she first met Rachel and I. And there's an Internet. There's a. There's a photo on the Internet somewhere about it, but we talk about it in the interview. But what we mostly talk about and what she really, really loves is STEM and STEAM and helping people learn language using those tools and. And beyond. Not just language, but all sorts of skills. So, without further ado, let's listen to my interview with Katie Wr.

00:04:51 Rachel Madel
We'd like to thank all of the wonderful Patreon supporters who make this show possible. This podcast is funded by listeners just like you who signed up at patreon.com talkingwithtech to show their support. Because of the generosity of our amazing Patreon community, we're able to pay Luke and Mikayla, our podcast producer and audio engineer, who keep the show looking and sounding great. Patreon supporters also receive bonus content, such as early access to interviews, behind the scenes recordings, additional curated resources and materials, and so much more. Check it out@patreon.com talking with tech. Now let's head back into the episode.

00:05:35 Chris Bugaj
Welcome to the Talking With Tech podcast. My name is Chris Bugaj, and today I'm joined with a very special guest, Katie Roettele. How's it going, Katie?

00:05:43 Katie Roettele
I am doing awesome. Excited to be here.

00:05:47 Chris Bugaj
All right, so, Katie, let's talk about how you and I met, because it was kind of a unique story. Yeah.

00:05:53 Katie Roettele
Yes. So, like many of The AT gurus out there. I'm a big fan girl of talking with tech Chris Bugaj, Rachel Madel, the whole thing. I had the opportunity last year to attend the pre conference at ATIA and I felt it was necessary to make a fan girl shirt. So I had my Chris Bugaj and Rachel Madel for president shirt. I should be selling them because they were a hit. And naturally I think that sparked some interest of like, who is this girl?

00:06:24 Chris Bugaj
So you definitely stood out for sure. That was totally unexpected and totally appreciated. So thank you for. For making that shirt, for wearing it and for the sentiment behind it. It was. It was awesome.

00:06:35 Katie Roettele
Absolutely.

00:06:37 Chris Bugaj
All right, so you know who we are. Who are you? Can you let everyone know a little bit about who you are and what you do?

00:06:42 Katie Roettele
Yeah. So I am based here in Michigan. I am an occupational therapist by trade. I am currently working as an assistive technology and AKC consultant. So I kind of wear both hats. Like many people in the school, I'm employed by our ISD where I support both center based programs and local districts in the realm of assistive technology. I also work per diem in an outpatient neuropediatric setting. I've been in the world of OT since 2012. I actually initially started out as a certified occupational therapy assistant, was working in the world of peds too, and then got my master's degree from Saginaw Valley in 2015. So carried on with my journey and a big part of my work right now focuses on universal design, making sure that all students have access to tools that allow them to be a part of their education.

00:07:34 Chris Bugaj
It sounds like you and I have similar jobs just in different places. Right. Where we're helping educators or other people, maybe with individual situations, but then more globally how we can create systems. Right. And then you have like you said, AAC and at. Right. It's. It's. You sort of do the whole thing. Yeah, yeah.

00:07:54 Katie Roettele
The whole gamut.

00:07:55 Chris Bugaj
Yeah.

00:07:55 Katie Roettele
I would say AAC is probably about 80% of what I do.

00:07:59 Chris Bugaj
Same same. It seems to be the thing that in a lot of other areas. I don't know if this is for you, but capacity built. Right. Like some. Some. It's always a big term. Right. Building capacity. And in some places other people are now doing it, you know. But AAC is the place that. Well, it's. It's still changing rapidly, but in growing rapidly. But it seems like there's needs to be the most support. It sounds like that is in your. In your area.

00:08:26 Katie Roettele
Absolutely. And I think a Lot of that came from buy in. So now that we've got that hook and we've seen this just consideration rapidly grow, then there becomes a need for additional support, coaching and implementation and supporting not only our staff, but a lot of your families as well.

00:08:43 Chris Bugaj
For sure, for sure. That is always a weak area that I found is that the families are the. Are the. It's. It's hardest for a school district to have ongoing training and support for families. Is that fair?

00:08:56 Katie Roettele
Absolutely. I just got off of actually a call right before this and I said it's always my favorite part of my month. And I lead a parent support group and it's the movers and the shakers, those families that are doing all the things and want as much support as possible. So it's trying to find the time and managing all of it. So definitely, yeah.

00:09:15 Chris Bugaj
So how did you get interested in AAC in the first place?

00:09:18 Katie Roettele
Yeah, so I actually first got involved with AAC when I was working as an OT and outpatient. Many of my clients had complex communication needs. And I firsthand saw how they access communication really changed their lives, not just in therapy, but everyday interactions with their families, their peers. And so when I transitioned into the schools, I started working more closely with teams on integration of AAC. I started working alongside of the SLPs. I just wanted to know and learn everything about that. My interest just kept growing in this area and now it became one of the primary focus areas of my job. I go back to like the core of occupational therapy and the goal is to support people in those meaningful activities. And for me, like the most meaningful thing is to communicate. I'm a very social person. I love to talk. And I realized how much I take communication maybe for granted and how critical it is that everybody has access to their voice. Seeing students light up when they realize they can express themselves is so powerful. And I wanted to be a part of that. I wanted to make sure that nobody is left out, that everybody can share their thoughts, their voice, communications are Right. Right. It's not a privilege. And that just kept me so passionate about aac. And I'm just so lucky because I had the opportunity to co treat with so many SLPs who are so knowledgeable in this area. And while I continue to bring my expertise in like the sensory regulation, alternative access side of things, I realized so much, like there's so much power in coach reading. And so when we focused on sensory needs and access first, that communication just naturally happened. And so a student, you know, who's dysregulated or struggling with motor control. But when we worked together and supported that, the positioning, the movement, it unlocked so much opportunity for communication. And that solidified my passion for this work. And I'm like, I need to be a part of this. I need to break down the barriers. I need to make sure that this is a possibility for all students.

00:11:19 Chris Bugaj
Now, while you were there at atia, one of the things that I learned about you with like little shoulder side conversations in between during, you know, breaks and things like that, but also like, you know, we had that, that that session was very interactive and a lot of conversation. You sort of made it known that you are a big fan of STEM and controlling, not controlling, inviting people to participate in science, technology, education, art, let's say throw the A in team and math. Right. So let's talk a little bit about that. What, what got you interested in that?

00:11:56 Katie Roettele
Yes. So I vividly remember a meeting in 2019. I was in our OT meeting and our instructional tech consultant brought in makey makeys and STEM was something I barely knew about. I kind of stumbled upon it in my realm of at, but I remember him bringing in those makey makeys and I did not see the direct correlation at all at the time. I remember being like, okay, not sure how or why I would ever use. And he hooked him up to a banana.

00:12:23 Chris Bugaj
A banana?

00:12:24 Katie Roettele
Yes. And I was like, okay. And then I later on went to the McCall Conference, which is a tech edtech conference here in Michigan, and I saw them again and they were set up the exact same way, hooked up to some fruits and veggies. And it wasn't until the car ride home and I called up my coworker who was the instructional tech person at the time, and I said, oh my gosh, that's a switch. And he's like, what? I'm like, that is literally a way that somebody can control the computer. And they really realized the power of this tool and how it could be something that allowed someone access to computer based things. So that moment like shifted my perspective. I remember going home and like looking up all these things that I was already doing and I was like, how can I now like gamify it and use this makey makey for it? So naturally I looked it up online and I was like, I thought I was brilliant. This was the first person to ever think of this. But I quickly found a Ted Talk from 2018. His name is Tom Heck. Definitely look it up if you've never seen it before. It's an 11 minute YouTube video. And so My colleague and I sat down and we nerded out about like, how are we going to make these different things? And so we sat down, we started working on it. He emailed Tom Heck. Next thing I know, we got an email from the creator of Makey Makey and he's like, this is not what I intended it for, but now I want to learn all your things. We had the opportunity to attend their retreat. So if you're not familiar with Makey Makey, I don't know how familiar you are. They're just a Kickstarter company.

00:13:57 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, I bet. I think it's a good idea to describe it for anyone listening. Like wait, I've heard of this.

00:14:02 Katie Roettele
Yeah, yeah. And I always get like made fun of because they're like the Makey Makey girl. And the term or the the name of it always makes people giggle. So if you're not familiar with it, it's a little tiny circuit board and it is designed to teach kids circuits but it ultimately takes anything that's conductive. So things like fruits, vegetables, water soaked materials. And it allows it to be a keystroke on your computer so you can control not only the mouse, so your up, down, left, right arrow keys, but also your entire keyboard. So things like online, any video games can be hooked up to it. And then using that, so hard to envision. Definitely needs a visual, but like you.

00:14:46 Chris Bugaj
Said, really inexpensive, easy to learn how to use. Those sorts of things feel complicated like how do I program something? But Mickey Mickey sort of makes it makes it easier.

00:14:58 Katie Roettele
Yes. And so 50 bucks for these little tool, it's not something permanent. So you can like hook it up to one thing and then use it with a different student on something else. And once we started building, creating, we realized real quickly that we were onto something of not only like creating a different mindset for teachers that were like, oh, I've been using that for years in my class for my maker STEM class, but also presenting to individuals that were disability providers. So like OTS, SLPs, they would buy them like we got no kickback, but they would buy them in our trainings in like seconds. And really how it could be a powerful tool for hands on learning also within a STEM class. Because I think that's when you were asking about my, I guess my involvement with STEM or where my passion came from was because at the time I was providing OT services in the general education setting and, and I noticed that when kids came from maybe a center based classroom and they're like, oh, we're going to try Gen Ed. It was the first place that they put them would be a special and the teacher would be like, I have no idea what to do. Like I, you know, I'm not sure, like they're doing coding today. I'm like, okay, let's figure this out. And so I think that's what originally sparked my interest of like, how can I be supporting this better? I need to learn STEM more too.

00:16:17 Chris Bugaj
So Makey Makey was sort of a gateway. And then let's talk about how that evolved and could you share some lessons or activities or experiences or stories of of what's happened since then?

00:16:29 Katie Roettele
Yeah. So since then I've had a lot of cool opportunities. I became a featured Makey makey educator alongside of my colleague Mark. And so we have presented both nationally and then internationally. With this work, we got to take part in a challenge where OTS could submit like their ideas and then they got to win a Makey Makey and all the things which was an awes little activity we did during COVID times. We were provided a REMC funded project. So here in Michigan, that's the regional educational media center. And so we were funded a $20,000 statewide project where we could provide professional development for teachers, support staff, ots, pt, speech, you name it, they could come. They got everything that they needed to make in that kit and they got a hands on demonstration. So they left with actual tools. And so I keep saying tools creations that we've made of probably around 13 different activities that we've made using a makey Makey. One of them, that's my favorite that stands out was for a little boy who I had in mind at the time. He had cerebral palsy. And some of his goals for me were working on like targeted reaching. He struggled with his motor control, his strength of his shoulder. And so we were working on a lot of like reaching away from his body. And I used to lots of cheap materials because in the schools, right, funding is always an issue. And so one of the things I was using with him in the past were like pool noodles and hula hoops. And so we created a giant remote control out of a hula hoop and I hooked it up to a Makey Makey. And so if you can envision this large hula hoop where he would actually reach and touch, that would be his up arrow. If he reached the bottom of the hula hoop, it would be the down arrow. Same thing with the left and the right. And he was able to Dr. Car on the computer. And so this was A game that everyone else was playing more traditionally with a mouse. But we made this alternative mouse using $5 worth of materials. I think I got the hula hoop from the Dollar store. I used some conductive tape and created this large remote control. And then I was like, okay, if I put that on the ground, I also could use it as a physical therapy tool. And you could work on standing balance and someone can control the remote control with their feet. So I realized, okay, this is just gamifying therapy. So I made a bunch of therapy tools and integrated makey makey into it. And my brain could not figure out like where the wires needed to go and what's conductive and what's not conductive. So I'm going to give full credit to my partner on this work, Mark, because that was where his brain really came into play. And together we really. It was nice because he's coming from that instructional tech background. He's a STEM director. And then I'm coming back from my special ed OT world, right? And then we're coming into classrooms and we quickly were like, okay, we can do this. Middle schoolers can do this. So we've done presentations at the middle school level. One of my favorites was I partnered with a classroom and we did a what is AT like lesson. And it was cute because the kids didn't necessarily think of AT in the realm of being used with other kids. They were like, my grandma uses that or my dad uses that. My mom has Ms. And so they. You started to see the wheels starting to turn on what AT is or what it could look like. So the teacher had them not only do some independent research on what assistive tech was, but then they each had to make their own AT tool using recycled products. One of my favorites was she took a two liter pop bottle and she cut it and she took recycled yarn and made a sock aid. So for the ots that are on this and listening, I was like, wow, that's a $40 tool normally. And so I was like, somebody else is just as nerdy as me and like creative, right? So creating these solutions. Funding is hard with at and so this like DIY AT Realm of STEM has really opened up a lot of opportunities for me over the years.

00:20:44 Chris Bugaj
You wove so much into that because there's the collaboration with, with other educators, right? Like you said, Mark, and finding a partner like that to say, okay, well I have this idea of how it could work, but do you know the technical stuff and can we partner together? And oftentimes they are looking for some practical thing to do. That's been my experience where I know how to print out a doodad or I know how to hook up a banana to make it. When you touch it, it makes something go on the screen. But I don't have a practical solution for that or like I don't have a problem to apply that knowledge to. So those coming together. That makes so much sense. So find an ally, right, that that will work on this stuff with you. And then the other thing that I heard woven through there is empowering other learners to about how to again, the meaning behind stem, not just do not just participate in a STEM activity for the sake of doing that, but to actually help somebody. Right?

00:21:40 Katie Roettele
Yeah. That's like our tagline, like big on make for a purpose, print for a purpose. I didn't share that part, but I learned about 3D printing back in 2019 as well. I quickly was realizing I needed a solution for a little boy I was working with at the time. He had spina bifida hydrocephalus and he was the only kiddo in the class room that couldn't feed himself. And so we were trialing all these different store bought commercial made universal cuffs and could not find something like the material would be wrong, he'd throw it off, it would be too big on him, it's falling off his hand. So then it was just all therapist or staff led, right. Feeding him. And so he was very dependent in that task. And so I like knew nothing about 3D printing, but I knew enough that I knew that they existed and that we had them in our buildings. And so back in 2019, I found I was googling like 3D print files and I found this fork support, it was what it was called and it was through makers making change. So I got to give them a plug because at the time I was like, what is this? And I sent it to a high school teacher and I said, hey, I know you have a 3D printer. Can you print this? And it was 17 cents and an hour and 11 minutes later and we had this beautiful printed fork support and it was the only universal cuff that worked for this kiddo. And I'm like, like, okay, I need more of those. But my brain doesn't just stop at that. So I was like, why are these files just free online? Like, I wanted to learn more about them. And at the time, Mark also challenged me, like, email them. We figured out real quickly that there was no us chapters yet of makers making change. And so I started the first ever us Chapter for Makers Making Change. Wow. Yeah. Here in Michigan. And so if you're not familiar with them, they're a nonprofit profit and they're based out of Canada. But there's tons of chapters now in the US which is awesome to see it grow. One of the groups that are super active online is in New York and Pennsylvania. They've got two really solid presence in the US as well. But with that role, we really were starting to print for users. Right. So it's the idea of volunteer based people that will volunteer their time to make and create DIY at solutions, get it in the hands of the user at a low cost so they only have to pay like the shipping and handling and the materials. So something like that, fork support would have been like 17 cents. And if I had to pay to ship it, you know, a couple bucks versus you know, 40, 50 bucks online for something or I recently made a jelly bean switch, something like that. I can make and ship for about $7. But I got burnout real quickly because I don't have the time to be a 3D printer all the time either. So we built capacity in our state by not only just teaching teachers about this, but teaching how they can implement that in their classroom. So really promoting that printing for a purpose, getting them. They're still learning the skill of 3D printing I love through Makers Making Change. Right. On their website they have the Print Lab. It's actually an online self series. I've had as young as middle schoolers flow through those and they can make make button hooks, they've made zipper pulls, bag holders. But like you said, it's important of that understanding of the end user. Right. So they're just making it just to make it and then we're at that same spot as it really holding function or a purpose. So we've partnered with the local college that has an OT program and we get them to kind of bridge those gaps out in the clinics and hospitals to get them in the hands of users and also the disability networks.

00:25:26 Chris Bugaj
All that sounds so awesome. Look at all the we. It's a buzzword in education, is building capacity. Right. And like you said, you quickly burned out. You couldn't handle all of it through yourself, so you had to build capacity in others. And just look at the ripple effect that that had. That's awesome. Can you tell us some stories about making to teach language with aac?

00:25:48 Katie Roettele
Yeah. So one thing that we've done a lot with is with using the makey makey specifically we've done some stuff with Co on Scratch. And so we've done some recording, so we'll pair, maybe they'll make a switch. So for an example, one of the switches we've made is just out of cardboard and bubble wrap. It takes just a couple minutes to make. And I love making that cardboard switch because you can gauge how much pressure. So if a kiddo needs something really sensitive, you can put more of the bubble wrap and it'll barely require touch. And then it will. We've paired language with it on using scratch for recordings, maybe make it jump or whatever, go reinforcing some of those actions. We've also hooked it up to like the Monarch Reader and created a switch using that and pulling in some literacy side of that as well.

00:26:37 Chris Bugaj
So, okay, let's, let's talk about those in more detail. So Monarch Reader, I bet a lot of people listening will understand that's sort of the updated version of Tar Heel Reader. So what I'm hearing you say there is that you've created switches to sort of go through the stories, right? Like sort of autonomously go through stories by hitting a switch, turning the page and having it read out loud. Is that that fair?

00:26:57 Katie Roettele
Yeah. And then we've even done like I've seen some of our teams, we've taken like the switches and maybe even put the symbol from their communication device on the switch that they're making to pair that with language. So Tar Heel Reader gameplay allows you to take a YouTube video and allows you to kind of do a start stop. So about like a five second hold and then they have to activate it again. And so we've done that with language and then pairing it with whatever targeted word we're working on in their communication device as well.

00:27:25 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, yeah. Now, okay, just before that, before you're mentioning Monarch Reader, you were talking about another piece of technology that people might not know about. Can you describe that?

00:27:36 Katie Roettele
Scratch.

00:27:37 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, exactly.

00:27:38 Katie Roettele
Okay. Yeah. So Scratch is a coding. It's block based coding. So you can create basically video games, lots of different things on that. You can create actions so you can make your character jump or move, you can create. Create sounds. But it's teaching coding through block coding. So you'll see that a lot, especially at the elementary level. And if you're like me and coding is not your jam, that is a great space to start. That's one of the ones, the things that we pair the makey. Makey with a lot.

00:28:07 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. A quick story. There is once upon a time, my son was in the first week, it was called coding in middle School class and he could take it instead of a language and they had Scratch. And that's what they were learning in. This was several years ago. Right. And I was looking at Scratch as sort of my gateway into scratch and learning it and playing with it and understanding what it was like. Like kids can create programs there. You, yes. You can follow along like tutorials and learn how to code, but then once you've learned some of the basics, you can make your own thing. Right. And there's some sort of challenge. And so I challenged my son Tucker and his friend to create a experience where someone could learn the word go. Right. So if you hit a switch, an airplane would go across the screen. You hit a switch again and then a surfer would go across the screen, hit a go again, and a boat would go across the screen. And then we were. He learned how to randomize it. But again, that same idea that we were talking before about, well, we're making tangible things. Let's make them for real people. Right. That, that could really be. Could really use these things. Same thing in our digital world is you could actually make games to. You teach words or teach concepts or teach language as opposed to make another Asteroids game that there's 900 of them in Scratch do you know, like, let's make something that could really teach somebody something.

00:29:29 Katie Roettele
Yeah. And I. And when we're talking about coding too, and one of the other tools I love to use are the Indie Spheros. We've used that a lot with AAC users. So within, like our peer to peer programs where an AAC user might be teamed up with a gen ed peer, the students work kind of together to navigate coding. And if you're not familiar with the Indie Spheros, one of the things that I love about their product is they actually have a special ed guide that already exists. And one of the things in it is how to incorporate AAC into that. Right. So there's a lot of those high frequency words, go turn you, me. And we've used that a lot. The kids love it and it's great for teamwork, problem solving and communication.

00:30:10 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. That particular product too. Again, not that we're endorsed or paid by Sphero, but they have these colored mats, right? They're like top tiles, like, I don't know, 6 by 6 inch tiles.

00:30:23 Katie Roettele
Like flexible.

00:30:24 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, yeah, flexible rubber sort of E. Right. And you throw them on the ground. And the Indie Sphero is sort of like a little car. Is that fair? It's got like four wheels and each color. When it sort of perceives the color. The camera shoots out and sees what color it is. It will turn or, or you know, do something based on the, on the colors. Right. Is that how that works?

00:30:46 Katie Roettele
Yeah. And so they have different like challenge cards. But what I, I appreciated about is they do accommodation like guide. And so I think like if a teacher has no idea where to get started, it's a great spot to like point them in that direction. Because it's got fine motor. It has, I want to say it's got fine motor. It has the AAC or the communication side of it. And we just have made like low tech boards that will be, can put in the indie kit if someone checks it out with some of those high frequency words that they might model. So just so easy to incorporate language into it. Index and there's a lot more power and go when you can make that car go or a robot go than a lot of the other things like you were saying before.

00:31:30 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, yeah. It just makes it so much fun and unique and a lot of people don't get an opportunity to experience that kind of stuff. So we've never, we've seen behavior. I should say we should. We've seen behaviors that sort of impede learning, go way down and language go way up. Opportunities to create language and more words. When we bring in robots like the indie Sphero and have experiences around them that similar to you, do you, do you find that there's more language when you were, when you're using stuff like that?

00:32:00 Katie Roettele
Absolutely. So another plug within the realm of the REMC organization here in Michigan. The reason I bring that up again is because there was another amazing funded project here in Michigan by Judy Bowling and Carrie. Um, they had put together and they. It's been ongoing now for years. But it's called the STEM Through Literacy Project. And what they've done is they, they take STEM activities and they pair it with a picture book that's based on a real life story. And at the time back like 2019, 2020, when that project was first released, I actually used to use it as an OT or a whole class session. I would use it as a whole group activity and the SLP would read the story and she would do a lot with AAC modeling and the kids just lit up. So one that comes to mind, one of their products or programs that they have, it's really nice. It's got an entire lesson plan with it and we've been working on it with them now they were adding accommodations right on it. So it'll be nice. So if a teacher checks it out, they'll already know some of those principles of like, ways to adapt or modify the activity. But the SLP and I that I was working with at the time, we would take these activities into like a moderate CI classroom and she would model language and AAC within the story. And then I would take out the activity, we'd get it going. And one of them that stands out is the book Ada's Violin. And you, the idea was that you took recycled products and you turned it into a musical instrument. And the products that came out of it alone were just amazing because kids were like, oh my gosh, they were taking two liter pop bottles, they were taking milk cartons and rubber bands and they were making guitars and using Kleenex boxes and anything that they found in the reception cycled bin at the time. And that was probably one of the opportunities I've seen kids communicate the most.

00:33:59 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. Yeah. Because it's so novel and interesting and you have to sort of work together to figure out how you're going to use this limited supply of, of stuff. It. That sounds awesome. I would love to see what they, what sort of musical instruments they came.

00:34:14 Katie Roettele
Up with and they like release. I think it's three or five books, I think it's three every year with the new activities. And they always pair it with some sort of design thinking and some sort of maker STEM type activity. And they always tie it to a real life story. And I love the books because you can really grade them up or down. And so they're great for all different age ranges, which is amazing.

00:34:39 Chris Bugaj
Something that I face, Katie, when I talk about this kind of stuff, like if I'll put a presentation in for a conference or something thing where I'm going to be talking about STEM or coding or you know, robots or something like that is I, I, there's, it's growing, but the numbers are always small, like compared to, I don't know anything else that I present on. You know, when I present on this, there's usually, I don't know, it depends on the different conference or whatever. But let's just say it probably averages out between 10 and 15 people that participate. And then those 10 or 15 people that though always leave going, why didn't I do this sooner? Like this is so much easier than I had in my brain. Like I didn't think of myself as a coder. You said like I, I wasn't thinking like stem, like when at first. Right. So have you experienced that and have you have any strategies to help me help people not have that as a barrier?

00:35:33 Katie Roettele
Yeah, I. No, I definitely have. I actually face that in my normal day to day job job as well. I kind of wear both hats. I mentioned that I'm the AT consultant, but we don't have an instructional tech necessarily anymore. We have a science consultant who also does a little bit of instructional tech. And it kind of fell on me as well. And so we both are a part of, like I said that REMC organization and within our roles as that. One of the things I realized though is that we were siloing tech. Right. So she had a group that was meeting and it was the STEM teachers. And then I had a group of AT leaders and I'm like, I am doing exactly what I do not promote. So we actually came together this year and we've merged those two committees, which has helped a lot. Because of those STEM and MAKER teachers are like, oh, wow, like I could be doing this. I also have learned specifically like right at when presenting in conferences, it's all about the title.

00:36:30 Chris Bugaj
Yeah.

00:36:31 Katie Roettele
And, and I've learned like a lot of people wear the STEM or the maker hat, but they might not necessarily have the special STEM at their school. They might be a science teacher, but really dabbling more into the tech side of things. Or I've even seen it where it's the librarian that's doing stem. And so I think that's always a barrier. Right. Thank God for AI because I've gotten more creative with my names of sessions. But I do think a lot of it is, is pulling in like the student engagement side of it. I think the more that you can say that this is going to be something that your students are going to be engaged in. Right. Who doesn't want to hear that?

00:37:13 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. Yeah. That is, I often call it like hiding the medicine in the brownies because it's like, here's your title. The title is decrease the amount of time students are lost doing something. You know, something like that. Like what's a problem a teacher is having? Oh, then you come in, they don't even know what the solution is. And then you show them this kind of stuff and they don't think of it as the, the title or the, the, the concept of STEM doesn't, Doesn't. Doesn't become a barrier.

00:37:44 Katie Roettele
Yeah. And I think like even within presenting on this content in the past, like especially with the makers making change side of it alone, like people leave in their own, like they have an actionable like, oh my gosh, I want to go. I have takeaway points. But I also get faced with like, we don't have the funding for a 3D printer or we don't. So I've learned so much of like, okay, I have to front load with, like, the resources, like, here's a map of local places that offer 3D printing in your area, or here's some grants that you could apply for right off the bat to get that hook, because otherwise I feel like they sit through my entire presentation or like, and I don't have one of those. Got to go.

00:38:22 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, I often find, like, I have to bring up free websites where you don't even have to log in or anything to practice coding to get the idea around it. And like you said, public libraries or other areas that are nearby so that you don't feel that that's another barrier that you have to overcome. That's great advice. What other advice would you give people that are interested in getting started here?

00:38:45 Katie Roettele
I'd say start small. You don't have to be a STEM expert to make these activities more inclusive, but exploring some of those tools and just getting hands on, getting your brain to think about ways to adapt them, partner with others. So whether it be the STEM teachers, I have felt like that is a big piece that I've learned too, is like, I don't know the OT in my building. I'm like, okay, well, you probably should. So allowing more and more PD opportunities where you get that integration of people and getting those different mindsets right come together and. And also listening to your students, they're going to show you what works. They're often going to come up with ideas that we would never think of. They often challenge me, like, why is this this way? I'm like, I don't know. But your way was better. So thank you for that. I currently am working in a classroom. If you have access to career centers, they are wonderful. They're always looking for projects. Robotics teams love challenging them. So I currently have have high school students that were like whizzes in their computer science class. And the teacher's like, they're already done with the curriculum and it's only halfway through the year. Do you have anything that they can work on? I'm like, absolutely. Here's a real life project. So they are currently in the final stages of designing a video game. I was like, I love adapted gaming. It's wonderful. However, most of my students go home and they don't have a Nintendo Switch or an Xbox. So this is great. But they do have their one to one Chromebook that you guys give them. So they are creating a very similar game to like Mario Kart, but it's all Bluetooth switch accessible. And to watch what a 10th and 11th grader can do with coding has just been amazing. And they have been loving. So they've been sending updates and then I send them updates back of the class trying it. So it's been amazing.

00:40:42 Chris Bugaj
That's awesome. And they know what's fun, right? Like they know it will be fun more than some adult imposing what they think is fun.

00:40:49 Katie Roettele
Absolutely. That brings up a good point with like the AAC side of things. Because I'm like, even with like AAC and I been thinking about this more and more is like, okay, you know, you get your standard vocabulary that comes on it. And I'm like, the terms like that kids say are not on there, right? So I lean in on a lot of like my older users of like, okay, how do you say that's cool? And then that's because that's what's programmed on here. But that's not how you say that's cool anymore. Right? So even that part, like listen to your students, like lean in on them because they're going to teach you the ways to be cool and the ways to make all of these things.

00:41:25 Chris Bugaj
I always say this like there's this army of kids that are desperate to do something meaningful with their time if we would just challenge them or ask for their help. And they will show up because it's so empowering to help other people, you know, and to see someone do something with your work, you know, it's just the flip opposite of the old circular filing can. You know, like, hey, I'm going to draw this picture. I'm going to write this essay. I'm going to do whatever the task is just for my teacher's eyes only. And then they're going to throw it in the, in the waste basket. I don't feel like I need to do my best work. I just need to do the work that my teacher sees. Right. But I want to do my best work if someone's going to actually be using my thing, you know.

00:42:03 Katie Roettele
Absolutely. I have a class that makes a lot of the 3D printed like low tech solutions. So 3D printed pencil grips and utensil holders assist for like getting into a locker. And I love this one class that I work with. They're actually Northern Michigan, so they're a couple hours away from me. But their class is always willing to 3D print and make things for anyone that I ask them to, and they actually package them up in their little mailers and they put a picture of the students that says, like, from your makers, and they all sign it, and I love it. So now what I always do is I always send back a photo and have my user, like, sign for it or whatever it is or send a video back because I do want them to see like. Like it did get in the hands of somebody that needed it. Yeah. It's amazing.

00:42:49 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. Your work matters, right? Your time matters. Right? That's. That's awesome. All right, well, you know, as being a longtime listener to the podcast, my final question I like to ask is what sort of, you know, scratching your brain recently? What's something that you're curious about or has piqued your interest that you're, you know, a passion you're pursuing? What's got you, you know, something that you're requesting after?

00:43:14 Katie Roettele
So right now, I've been partnering and kind of getting a little bit more into accessible art. Our local art studio is doing Accessibility. It's going to be an exhibit specifically for individuals with a disability, by individuals with a disability. And I got pulled into it more to help with creating a core board for the event and supporting the communication side of things it. But I wanted to make sure that our students had representation at it. So we've been doing some eye gaze paintings and accessible art that way, really just thinking into how we can adapt more things that are typically off limits. And then I'm also curious. Obviously, AI has been around now for the last couple years, but I'm wanting to see more and more of. It's going to play a role into AAC in the future, digging into how communication can be, like, more personalized and intuitive. It's fast moving. Right. And I love the challenge of figuring out these tools can really change the way that we're supporting students.

00:44:16 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. Yeah. And it's so funny. You tie those two things together. That is one of the big impetuses of us trying to get generative AI into hands of learners themselves is, well, okay, someone. Someone could. Could paint something with their hands, and someone could paint something with their words. This just gives another opportunity to maybe make something, you know what I'm saying? With generative AI is making some sort of image. Right. And making changes to it and doing that all with the language that you use, maybe through your communication device. Right. And make marks with your. With whatever. You know, the. There's a art teacher that I work with is just calling it Making marks. Right. Like my job is to help you figure out how to make marks so that you can make art. You know, so, so, so bringing those two worlds together makes a lot of sense to me.

00:45:05 Katie Roettele
And I would be failing if I didn't say. The last real big spark or area that I'm loving right now is podcasting with students. There is a Podcasting for students challenge here in Michigan and watching a student who maybe is very quiet and doesn't talk a lot and you allow them that stage to be able to talk about whatever they want. They talk and, and I have loved that as being an outlet. So I appreciate it because it feels like it ties into this. And podcasting is a huge powerful tool.

00:45:40 Chris Bugaj
That maybe gets overlooked when, when you say that are they podcasts that are front facing for the public to listen.

00:45:47 Katie Roettele
To so they actually record in Spotify and then they were submitting for approval like I guess like submitting for a contest. They have people that rank them on basically based on creativity. But there is a big push for that here in Michigan within our EdTech RemSee group. And I've seen more and more of our EdTech leaders here implementing that in classrooms that maybe wouldn't be a traditional classroom that you would think of. So I've seen students even have somebody maybe interpret. Right. That they what they want in their podcast. I've seen it even at the next level of like creating the graphic that's going to be for their podcast in Canva or something like that. And it's an art. What you guys do is an art. So it is. There's a lot of work that goes into it and I think it's an amazing outlet for kids that maybe gets overlooked.

00:46:41 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. You know you just to pull back what you had said earlier about like accessible gaming. Right. And a lot of people don't have that at, at home but we have in school maybe some sort of esports or club or something like that. So we can help, help someone participate in that sort of experience. And there's all these different aspects around it and I think podcasting is the same like, like you mentioned artwork but then there's advertising and so how are we going to advertise about the podcast? And then there's the editing. Right. And so who wants to do that? And it's because it can be this just like gaming. There could be a very collaborative community sort of experience. Sounds like it sounds like it's an awesome thing. Good luck to the kids. Hope they want in.

00:47:23 Katie Roettele
I know it's, it Was. Has been awesome and like, things that you're like, I would have not thought about that. And I got the opportunity to watch my boyfriend's daughter submit for her podcast and to watch her use chat GPT to come up with her podcasting script. And like, she, you know, you got two edtech people at home, like, clearly. But it was amazing, you know, like, to watch that creativity. Like, she's like, I want like a flower in this top right corner of my. My graphic that's going to be on Spotify. So neat. Neat. Neat. So love it.

00:47:55 Chris Bugaj
That's awesome. Awesome. All right, Katie, well, listen, I. Where do you think you and I are going to run across each other again?

00:48:01 Katie Roettele
Oh, that's to be determined. I don't know what my 2025, 2026 looks like yet. I have not yet decided. It's either closing the gap or ATIA again and. Or iste. I don't know.

00:48:14 Chris Bugaj
Yeah, their own good. They're all good. They're all good. I mean, I love the idea of like, McCall and ISTE because I think. Isn't McCall the ISTE affiliate? Right.

00:48:24 Katie Roettele
Yes, it's. So it's like our Michigan EdTech conference here. And I, I know we share the similar passion for that. Like, I love going to those and presenting. Right. And. And taking that information and coming home and like looking at it through a different lens.

00:48:40 Chris Bugaj
Yeah. And sharing to that population when you present. Right. Yeah, that's because that's again, where you can build cap. Right. They will fly when you share it with them. All right, well, Katie, good luck. I'm sure we will run into each other. Maybe it's ata, maybe it's one of those conferences. Who knows? But I'm looking forward to it.

00:48:59 Katie Roettele
Awesome. Thank you.

00:49:00 Chris Bugaj
Thanks.