Episode 353: Bob Sagoo: Celebrating the Life and Legacy of Harchie Sagoo
Description:
In this episode, Chris & Rachel talk with Bob Sagoo a longtime assistive technology professional and parent advocate. Bob shares the story of his son Harchie, his path from low-tech communication supports to high-tech eye gaze and the Grid ecosystem. Bob shares how Harchie’s drive for speed, independence, and participation (including accessible gaming) shaped the way he thought about AAC. Bob also introduces The Harchie Way, a foundation being developed to carry forward Harchie’s legacy by connecting AAC users and the assistive technology industry, promoting education (including healthcare communication access), and pushing for innovation that is truly user-informed.
Key Ideas This Week:
Innovation Works Best When AAC Users Help Design It
Harchie was deeply interested in how AAC could evolve beyond static grid sets. Bob shares Harchie’s ideas about AI-enabled AAC supports (like context-aware vocabulary that changes based on location, predictive communication supports, and using a device camera to recognize emotion/health cues and prompt for support). The underlying message is that AAC users should be involved at the concept stage, not just asked to test a finished product.
The Harchie Way: Building a “Conduit” Between Users, Industry, and Systems That Must Be Accessible
Bob outlines early goals for The Harchie Way: creating pathways for AAC users to share priorities directly with developers, promoting education and awareness (especially for healthcare providers supporting people who don’t communicate in conventional ways), and advocating for access in real-life systems (medical tech, banking, and beyond). Bob also shares Harchie’s future-facing vision of helping AAC users attend and present at conferences such mirroring the strong user-centered culture seen at Communication Matters in the UK.
Transcript of the Episode
Please Note: This transcript was generated using speech recognition & AI tools reviewed by a human; it may contain some grammatical and/or spelling errors.
00:00:03 Chris
Welcome to Talking with Tech.
00:00:04 Chris
My name is Chris Bugaj, and I'm here with Rachel Madel.
00:00:06 Chris
Hi, Rachel.
00:00:07 Rachel
Hey, Chris.
00:00:08 Chris
Oh, we're not here alone, Rachel.
00:00:10 Chris
We're here with Bob Sagoo.
00:00:11 Chris
Bob, how's it going?
00:00:13 Bob Sagoo
Hi, guys.
00:00:13 Bob Sagoo
Yeah, it's going good.
00:00:14 Bob Sagoo
Thank you.
00:00:15 Chris
Bob, this is not your first time on the podcast, but just in case this is the first time people are hearing you on the podcast, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
00:00:26 Bob Sagoo
My name is Bob Sagoo.
00:00:27 Bob Sagoo
I am
00:00:29 Bob Sagoo
Based here in, as you can probably tell from the accent, I am based in England in a town called Nottingham, which is well known for Sherwood Forest and obviously Robin Hood.
00:00:42 Bob Sagoo
I've been in the assistive tech and AAC industry for, crikey, I have to think about this now, probably about 17, 18 years now.
00:00:54 Bob Sagoo
Gone into the industry to find an AAC solution
00:00:59 Bob Sagoo
for my son Hachi and as a parent and my interest or motivation was finding a high-tech solution for him to access.
00:01:13 Bob Sagoo
And he utilized IKs from a very early age.
00:01:17 Bob Sagoo
And my interest in the industry developed from there.
00:01:20 Bob Sagoo
I started signposting other parents and carers to certain elements of assistive tech and ASC.
00:01:27 Bob Sagoo
until it was suggested to me that maybe it's something I ought to look at doing properly as it were.
00:01:33 Bob Sagoo
So I started in the industry running my own company called iHelp Innovations back in 2013, I think.
00:01:41 Bob Sagoo
And then from there, I went on to look at other areas of AAC, then delved into assistive technology and my journey to bringing you up to date.
00:01:54 Bob Sagoo
working for a company called Praetorian Technologies who make alternative computer and switch access solutions.
00:02:02 Bob Sagoo
Again, we're based here in the UK, but my brief is to support our distributors, our users, and the whole remit globally.
00:02:11 Bob Sagoo
So I do travel quite a bit.
00:02:13 Bob Sagoo
And case in point, I'll be over at ATIA later on in the month.
00:02:20 Bob Sagoo
But yeah, that's me.
00:02:22 Bob Sagoo
From a personal perspective, my motivation for being in this industry is my son, Arch.
00:02:29 Bob Sagoo
Sadly, my heart, she passed away unexpectedly just before Christmas 2024.
00:02:36 Bob Sagoo
But the motivation remains.
00:02:39 Bob Sagoo
And one of the things I'm really excited to talk about to you guys today is what we plan to do with
00:02:46 Bob Sagoo
a foundation which is going to continue Harchie’s work and I'll talk about that a bit later on.
00:02:51 Bob Sagoo
But yeah, really excited to be here again and talking to these guys and talk to all the listeners as well.
00:02:59 Bob Sagoo
So yeah, that's me in a nutshell.
00:03:03 Chris
Bob, one of the reasons I think you and I met back in the day, like you said, you've been around since...
00:03:08 Chris
for 17, 18 years, and so am I, right?
00:03:12 Chris
I like to joke that.
00:03:13 Bob Sagoo
I look like I have been.
00:03:14 Bob Sagoo
You do not look like someone.
00:03:15 Bob Sagoo
You like the Benjamin Button of 1880, so you do not age, whereas I age.
00:03:23 Chris
It's the filters, Bob.
00:03:24 Chris
It's the filters on Zoom.
00:03:25 Chris
That's what's making you look so young.
00:03:29 Chris
We both had some gray in our beard here.
00:03:30 Chris
But I think one of the things that brought us together, you, me, and then one of the reasons I got to know Harchie a little bit was your love for gaming.
00:03:37 Chris
Is that fair?
00:03:38 Chris
Like you guys were big into accessible gaming and Harchie was sort of a gamer.
00:03:43 Chris
And is that a fair?
00:03:45 Chris
I think that's one of the things that bonded us over the years.
00:03:48 Chris
Is that fair?
00:03:49 Bob Sagoo
Absolutely.
00:03:50 Bob Sagoo
I think we, you know,
00:03:52 Bob Sagoo
Arch was keen to explore all different aspects of access and communication was something he nailed on to quite quickly.
00:04:03 Bob Sagoo
But there was other activities that he wanted to utilize with his device and gaming was something that he was really keen to explore and to go down.
00:04:12 Bob Sagoo
Unfortunately, I was in a position to sort of like help facilitate that with Praetorian because Pretorian has a very extensive assisted gaming
00:04:21 Bob Sagoo
range, as it were, for both eye gaze users, Switch users, and individuals who use joysticks, trackballs, and so forth.
00:04:28 Bob Sagoo
So, yeah, he loved it, and he loved, and you know, what gaming could you provide him?
00:04:33 Bob Sagoo
It was an outlet for him to express himself, to interact with people that he wouldn't necessarily see all the time, but he was a regular, you know, teenager, going to a young man.
00:04:44 Bob Sagoo
And it was something that all of his peers were doing.
00:04:47 Bob Sagoo
And there's something that he wants to take part in and enjoy.
00:04:53 Bob Sagoo
And there were so many games that he really enjoyed playing and got into.
00:04:58 Bob Sagoo
So yeah, very much so.
00:05:00 Chris
Yeah, Can you tell us a little about his history with AAC and kind of where it started and grew over the years?
00:05:07 Bob Sagoo
I'm sorry, you have to wait till the presentation.
00:05:10 Bob Sagoo
No, I'm just joking.
00:05:11 Bob Sagoo
I'm joking.
00:05:12 Bob Sagoo
I'm joking.
00:05:12 Bob Sagoo
So Harche's journey really started.
00:05:15 Bob Sagoo
And this is where I think with respect to his AAC journey, he
00:05:23 Bob Sagoo
I think the early days and the support he saw and the learning he took, we went through the low tech solutions or no tech to low tech communication books and so forth.
00:05:40 Bob Sagoo
That really did give him the grounding to then move in an upward slope with regards to his AAC.
00:05:50 Bob Sagoo
learning curve because you learn the basics really well and people got to interact with him.
00:05:55 Bob Sagoo
He then understood, okay, I think I'm beyond my communication book.
00:05:59 Bob Sagoo
I need something that's quicker.
00:06:01 Bob Sagoo
And Hart is one of those niches, niche users who access ASU who have no cognitive impairment.
00:06:08 Bob Sagoo
So his condition, his CP was relating to final gross motor skills and speech.
00:06:15 Bob Sagoo
Other than that, he had no learning disability.
00:06:17 Bob Sagoo
And I'm finding a lot of individuals that access eye gaze do have a very good level of cognitive ability.
00:06:25 Bob Sagoo
So they want that speed and that interaction that you get when regular people talk to each other, so he was really wanting ways and means to be able to speak and to communicate at that speed and at that pace and in that detail.
00:06:44 Bob Sagoo
So, very early on, I mean, at four years of age, now you've got eye gaze users so much younger.
00:06:52 Bob Sagoo
But I think, personally, from my experience, going down the route of low tech,
00:07:01 Bob Sagoo
really did give him the grounding to sort of like then moving in a nice uniform sort of pace.
00:07:09 Bob Sagoo
But also his parents, it gave us the background knowledge to go, okay, now how to construct, I know how to formulate, you know, a grid set or paycheck for him.
00:07:22 Bob Sagoo
Oh, I know how to use the, I mean, I think we went through about 3 laminators.
00:07:27 Bob Sagoo
just burnt through them.
00:07:29 Bob Sagoo
I mean, I used to get the big cases of laminating sheets because that's what you do.
00:07:32 Bob Sagoo
I cut to my fingers and everything.
00:07:35 Bob Sagoo
But as your child's vocabulary expands, so does this communication book.
00:07:40 Bob Sagoo
And with Hart, it just got bigger and bigger and bigger.
00:07:42 Bob Sagoo
So we had to sort of whittle it down to make it a bit more easier for him to utilize.
00:07:47 Bob Sagoo
And I realized actually it's been, it became pretty redundant because he was so quick at responding that we needed to look at
00:07:55 Bob Sagoo
medium tech to high tech very, very quickly.
00:07:59 Bob Sagoo
So I would say what really helped in his journey was he was very fortunate to find people in education and in therapy that were that recognised those attributes that he had and encouraged that, but challenged him as well.
00:08:17 Bob Sagoo
But a lot of it came from him and his desire to say, I want to do more, I want to communicate more, I want to be able to access more.
00:08:25 Bob Sagoo
And that's why he went into a mainstream educational route very, very early on.
00:08:31 Bob Sagoo
But yeah, and his AAC journey then continued with Eye Gaze.
00:08:36 Bob Sagoo
He saw so many different iterations of Eye Gaze from, this is where people all sort of like cringe.
00:08:45 Bob Sagoo
when you're going like to the, oh my God, is it the old My Tobi with a big screen on a trolley, huge thick cable into a PC tower system.
00:08:56 Bob Sagoo
That's where he had his first eye gaze assessment.
00:08:58 Bob Sagoo
And I remember that vividly because his communication was really good.
00:09:02 Bob Sagoo
He used eye pointing, up was yes, down was no, left and right will all roll his eyes if he was just, want to be a bit sarcastic, but his communication was really, really clear.
00:09:14 Bob Sagoo
And I remember going to this assessment with this huge screen, this eye gaze system, talking to the technician, I put Harsh in front of the screen.
00:09:27 Bob Sagoo
We haven't even done a calibration.
00:09:29 Bob Sagoo
I mean, at that time, you had to calibrate every time to utilize it.
00:09:33 Bob Sagoo
So we hadn't actually run a calibration.
00:09:36 Bob Sagoo
I'm talking to the technician, just getting a bit more information off of them.
00:09:40 Bob Sagoo
And unbeknownst to me, he's actually
00:09:43 Bob Sagoo
realised that the cursor is, he can move the cursor with his eyes.
00:09:49 Bob Sagoo
He's able to realise I can navigate around the screen.
00:09:52 Bob Sagoo
And there is a book, it's a digital book on the screen.
00:09:57 Bob Sagoo
And I just hear this like click, click, click, click noise.
00:10:00 Bob Sagoo
And I look around and he's actually, I don't know how it was set up, but I could tell he was reading from left to right and then turning the page.
00:10:11 Bob Sagoo
He was like, must have been about 3:00 or 3 1/2.
00:10:16 Bob Sagoo
I'm just my maths on the floor.
00:10:19 Bob Sagoo
And I'm like, the technician's like, wow.
00:10:20 Bob Sagoo
And then we've got everything sort of set up.
00:10:23 Bob Sagoo
And he's going through all these different activities and hitting all these different sort of points on the screen, utilizing that really basic rudimentary IGA system.
00:10:33 Bob Sagoo
And when I say we cringe, he went through the T-series, the C-series.
00:10:40 Bob Sagoo
And here's the cool thing with Harch is that back in the day, those systems were great.
00:10:47 Bob Sagoo
It's all that we had, but they were prone to failure in the sense of hardware failure, or it would crash or something like that.
00:10:57 Bob Sagoo
And he actually, probably a lot of users at a particular time, learned to work around
00:11:04 Bob Sagoo
these issues, learned to sort of say, OK, well that's not going to work.
00:11:07 Bob Sagoo
Oh, it's not working.
00:11:08 Bob Sagoo
OK, I'm not getting annoyed because I know it's not my fault, it's the hardware.
00:11:11 Bob Sagoo
So, that cognitive and that level of maturity really did help in his AAC sort of journey.
00:11:19 Bob Sagoo
So, yeah, he saw a lot, he saw the progression and the innovation
00:11:26 Bob Sagoo
and experienced it himself.
00:11:29 Bob Sagoo
And so his journey started at a very young age, again with low tech, and then we just progressed, progressed on from there.
00:11:39 Chris
What system did he end up with?
00:11:42 Bob Sagoo
Well, he went, I say he used in the early days, he used a C series, an I series and so forth, but it was always within the grid three or grid two.
00:11:52 Bob Sagoo
So Grid 2
00:11:54 Bob Sagoo
ecosystem with SmartBox and then he went on the Grid 3.
00:12:00 Bob Sagoo
The device that I still have, which is, it's a GridPad 13.
00:12:04 Bob Sagoo
And you guys know, because you were at ATIA last year, that Harch was involved in the development of the GridPad 13.
00:12:16 Bob Sagoo
And he beta tested that and fed back a lot of information to
00:12:22 Bob Sagoo
to the guys at Smart Box and his role as an ambassador was such as that.
00:12:27 Bob Sagoo
He was at the launch days for the Grid Pad 13 here in the UK and presented at both of these events and drew quite a few laughs and giggles from all the very, very senior sort of therapists and
00:12:42 Bob Sagoo
professionals that were there.
00:12:44 Bob Sagoo
He had them in the palm of his hand.
00:12:46 Bob Sagoo
But yeah, he developed the GridPad 13 and we're just so excited.
00:12:51 Bob Sagoo
He was talking to SmartBox about what he wanted to see in his device.
00:12:56 Bob Sagoo
And it's taking it away from his presentation, but what he felt was we were just scratching the surface.
00:13:07 Bob Sagoo
with regards to what these devices can do or should be doing.
00:13:12 Bob Sagoo
He loved the idea of AI.
00:13:14 Bob Sagoo
He really, really felt that was going to really move things forward in a really, really big way and a huge leap forward.
00:13:22 Bob Sagoo
And things like, for example, I know a lot of talk was on with regards to devices last year at ATI with location servers, having location services switched on so your device knows where you are.
00:13:36 Bob Sagoo
Maharsh was very keen to say, I don't want to have someone reconstruct a page set or grid set for me.
00:13:45 Bob Sagoo
I want to see ways that AI will, for example, if I go into a coffee shop and the device will know you're in a coffee shop, it'll bring up, okay, you're in Starbucks.
00:14:03 Bob Sagoo
Here's the menu.
00:14:03 Bob Sagoo
What would you like to, what are you thinking of ordering?
00:14:06 Bob Sagoo
Now if he's already been to Starbucks, it's a regular haul for him.
00:14:09 Bob Sagoo
He'll know what he orders.
00:14:11 Bob Sagoo
So I'll say, not prompt you, would you like to order this?
00:14:13 Bob Sagoo
Right, okay, that's awesome.
00:14:15 Bob Sagoo
But then he wants to take that into when he goes clothes shopping and he wants to have a look around or wanted to do food shopping.
00:14:21 Bob Sagoo
That's where he saw how AI could help with his day-to-day sort of elements, but also with his communication.
00:14:28 Bob Sagoo
He was
00:14:31 Bob Sagoo
He felt that the construct that we have for AAC with regards to grid sets and so forth, he wanted to move beyond that because he actually felt that was quite restrictive.
00:14:41 Bob Sagoo
He wants to embrace predictive, predictive text, predictive AAC.
00:14:47 Bob Sagoo
And one of the things that he was really keen to do was he said, oh, this is my, he was, I was really fortunate in 2024, the early part of 2024,
00:15:00 Bob Sagoo
I'd come back from ATIA and my head watches watches saying something to me.
00:15:10 Bob Sagoo
We'd come back from ATIA and we talked to talked about, he loved the stories I told him about ATIA.
00:15:17 Bob Sagoo
He, you know, he talked to me when I was over there and just won a full debrief when I got back.
00:15:23 Bob Sagoo
But what he felt was like, he says, my device has a front-facing camera.
00:15:29 Bob Sagoo
It needs to do a lot more than just be for communication or, virtual calls and so forth.
00:15:36 Bob Sagoo
And what he wants, what we talked about was how the front facing camera now, which on a lot of devices now are very high spec, is I wanted to be able to look at facial recognition and actually utilizing AI.
00:15:52 Bob Sagoo
And this is probably coming from when he was like, when he was diagnosed with diabetes.
00:16:00 Bob Sagoo
What he felt the device should do is learn your facial expressions.
00:16:06 Bob Sagoo
So if you're a bit down or upset or something isn't quite right, your device prompts you to say, hey Bob, hey Harch, are you feeling okay?
00:16:16 Bob Sagoo
Is there anyone you want me to contact or is there anybody, you know, what, can you tell me what the problem is?
00:16:23 Bob Sagoo
That's what he wanted to utilize.
00:16:26 Bob Sagoo
This is just one of so many different examples of what, how he felt AT and especially communication devices should be able to do.
00:16:37 Bob Sagoo
He knows that having worked with smart box and known all the, tech element with regards to his device, he knows it's more than capable of doing that sort of thing.
00:16:48 Bob Sagoo
And he would believe it actually, so the reason for that we're playing for 2024 was that he wants to do the panky.
00:16:55 Bob Sagoo
presentation.
00:16:57 Bob Sagoo
He liked the idea of it all being fully paid for.
00:16:59 Bob Sagoo
He thought, this would be cool.
00:17:00 Bob Sagoo
I can go over there and I have to, you know, I don't have to pay for anything.
00:17:03 Bob Sagoo
So he, but part of that is that you have to do the Q&A on your own, which is something he hadn't worked on.
00:17:10 Bob Sagoo
So for 2024, we were getting presentations together, but also working on the Q&A element so he could actually do that comfortably on his own.
00:17:19 Bob Sagoo
And you know what?
00:17:20 Bob Sagoo
We unfortunately, you know, ran out of time.
00:17:24 Bob Sagoo
to that degree.
00:17:24 Bob Sagoo
But that's what he, that's the way he sees AI and innovation are the things that really are going to really take huge steps forward and going to benefit his community.
00:17:41 Bob Sagoo
And he's very much aware that, you know, the AAC community, he was a big part of that and he saw his role as being someone as an advocate to say, this is what needs to happen, this is what we need to do.
00:17:54 Bob Sagoo
but not in a confrontational way.
00:17:56 Bob Sagoo
And that was the beauty of his whole approach and how he is, that people were drawn to him.
00:18:02 Bob Sagoo
And he used that to say, okay, I want to talk with the industry.
00:18:05 Bob Sagoo
I want to engage with the industry.
00:18:07 Bob Sagoo
And yeah, that's one of the things that his foundation is going to continue is that be that conduit.
00:18:14 Bob Sagoo
So individuals can feed back to the industry.
00:18:18 Bob Sagoo
This is what we want to see.
00:18:20 Bob Sagoo
Rather than at the moment, it's being the industry designing a solution.
00:18:23 Bob Sagoo
and saying, here you go.
00:18:25 Bob Sagoo
They need to be involved in the design process in the early concept and how it's going to be put together and so forth.
00:18:33 Bob Sagoo
And that's what he wanted to do.
00:18:36 Bob Sagoo
And that's what the foundation will, one of the things that the foundation will endeavor to try and put in place.
00:18:45 Rachel
Tell us more about the foundation.
00:18:47 Rachel
I'm really excited to hear about it.
00:18:48 Rachel
This is 1 element of it.
00:18:49 Rachel
Does it have a name?
00:18:50 Rachel
Like what else are you planning to do?
00:18:53 Bob Sagoo
No.
00:18:53 Bob Sagoo
So yes, it has a name.
00:18:56 Bob Sagoo
Unfortunately, I didn't realize when I decided to set this foundation up, what is actually involved is setting up a foundation from a legal perspective, from a financial, you know, requirement perspective, you're going to have a statement and there is a whole, whole infrastructure that needs to be in place.
00:19:14 Bob Sagoo
And last year was incredibly busy for us on a number of levels.
00:19:18 Bob Sagoo
So the name of the foundation is called the Hearty Way.
00:19:23 Bob Sagoo
because I tried to, it was actually a friend of ours that said, he's an example of living inside 4 and this was something that summed up who he is and his outlook on life and such.
00:19:39 Bob Sagoo
So that was the name that we went with.
00:19:41 Bob Sagoo
And what it's going to do, like I say, I alluded to the foundation, one of the aspects of the foundation, to be a conduit.
00:19:49 Bob Sagoo
So AACU, because there are individuals
00:19:53 Bob Sagoo
who are as passionate about, as passionate as Harji was, about innovation, about adopting innovation into AAC and AT.
00:20:06 Bob Sagoo
So we want to be a conduit for those individuals to the industry.
00:20:12 Bob Sagoo
Harji knew a lot of people.
00:20:14 Bob Sagoo
I know a lot of people.
00:20:15 Bob Sagoo
So we're hoping that we can, through that, just get that dialogue, get that
00:20:22 Bob Sagoo
that route through so individuals can put across the industry what it is they want to see.
00:20:28 Bob Sagoo
And that will benefit the industry because I'm part of the industry as well.
00:20:31 Bob Sagoo
So we would, to tailor a solution, if we've got that input from users, then that's fabulous.
00:20:39 Bob Sagoo
With the Pretorian, you know, we value that input, we value that feedback.
00:20:45 Bob Sagoo
And I think the industry as a whole will embrace that.
00:20:48 Bob Sagoo
But it's bringing the two together.
00:20:50 Bob Sagoo
and to be that conduit to David.
00:20:53 Bob Sagoo
And it works both ways.
00:20:55 Bob Sagoo
So it goes from the users to the industry, but also the industry to the users to say, look, this is what we're trying to do.
00:21:00 Bob Sagoo
This is what we want to do.
00:21:02 Bob Sagoo
And rather it being a finished concept and here you try it out for us, we want to be involved, the community, you know, should be involved, you know, at the very beginning, at the very early stages of the other solution with regards to the concept.
00:21:18 Bob Sagoo
It's happening in gaming.
00:21:19 Bob Sagoo
It is happening in assistive gaming.
00:21:21 Bob Sagoo
You see it in mainstream.
00:21:22 Bob Sagoo
I'm watching the following the CES show, the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas.
00:21:26 Bob Sagoo
You can get over there this year to try.
00:21:29 Bob Sagoo
So, just fine.
00:21:31 Bob Sagoo
But a lot of people there are talking about accessibility and not as a token gesture, but as
00:21:39 Bob Sagoo
being something that's engineered in from the very, conception of the stage of a solution.
00:21:46 Bob Sagoo
And that's what we need, that's what we need from mainstream is to say, okay, we need to think about all demographics as well as the access goes.
00:21:55 Bob Sagoo
And so, yeah, that's one of the elements that we do with the foundation.
00:21:59 Bob Sagoo
The other one is to promote education.
00:22:05 Bob Sagoo
in certain areas with regards to awareness, I suppose, and education to a certain degree.
00:22:11 Bob Sagoo
With regards to what's required, Harchie’s passing was unexpected, completely unexpected.
00:22:22 Bob Sagoo
And I think a lot of parents will appreciate this, that sometimes in a medical environment, clinical environment, an individual
00:22:34 Bob Sagoo
And individual needs sometimes can't be fully addressed in the way they ought to be.
00:22:38 Bob Sagoo
And there needs to be multiple sensitivity towards that.
00:22:42 Bob Sagoo
So one of the aspects of the foundation is to really engage with health care providers.
00:22:48 Bob Sagoo
Here we have in the UK, we have the NHS, National Health Service, and to engage with them to ensure that, you know, individuals that aren't able to communicate in the conventional way are, you know, staff are trained.
00:23:04 Bob Sagoo
to just the rudimentaries of being able to communicate and know what questions to ask and how to ask them and give time for people to respond as it were.
00:23:20 Bob Sagoo
So that's one element.
00:23:22 Bob Sagoo
But also the other aspect, aside from the education aspect with regards to medical providers, is innovation and talking and engaging with
00:23:34 Bob Sagoo
certain, mainstream and other elements to ensure that innovation is in there for AT and AAC users.
00:23:42 Bob Sagoo
Give you an example of that.
00:23:43 Bob Sagoo
We're in discussions with Dexacom, who are one of the biggest manufacturers of glucose monitors.
00:23:50 Bob Sagoo
So one of the things that Harchie wanted to do with being type 1 diabetic is he had a tubeless pump system.
00:24:01 Bob Sagoo
They called it an artificial pancreas.
00:24:02 Bob Sagoo
Essentially, it was a monitor in his arm, pump on his leg, and they talked without to each other, and they gave him the required insulin.
00:24:11 Bob Sagoo
But a key part of that was he needed to monitor his blood glucose levels, or blood sugar levels, as it were.
00:24:17 Bob Sagoo
And he had to utilize his phone for that.
00:24:20 Bob Sagoo
What he wants to do is sit on his device.
00:24:24 Bob Sagoo
And there is
00:24:27 Bob Sagoo
There is an SDK that Dexacom putting together, so it'll enable, because unfortunately a lot of AAC users or a number of AAC users do have other medical conditions as well that they need to manage and they need to monitor.
00:24:41 Bob Sagoo
And Harchie took the lead on that.
00:24:43 Bob Sagoo
And so very much the cases we're talking with Dexacom and we're going to be working with SmartBox.
00:24:50 Bob Sagoo
Some of the most SmartBox have done, which is really cool, is that they've they're opening a new development lab.
00:24:55 Bob Sagoo
one of their sites in Bristol and it's going to be, that's not official yet, I've been told, but it will be in honour of Harchie.
00:25:04 Bob Sagoo
So it'll have his, yeah, he's have his name there.
00:25:08 Bob Sagoo
But yeah, so Dexacom is one, we're talking to financial institutions, banks, because he was very, very careful with his money.
00:25:15 Bob Sagoo
He wanted to access his money, he wanted to access his shares and do all that sort of stuff.
00:25:20 Bob Sagoo
So it was trying to make sure that
00:25:23 Bob Sagoo
accessibility with regards to those sort of elements are properly catered for individuals that need that level of access as such.
00:25:33 Bob Sagoo
So it's lots of different things.
00:25:36 Bob Sagoo
And yeah, another activities, we've got so many things.
00:25:41 Bob Sagoo
There's this brain trust of people that are coming together for this foundation.
00:25:44 Bob Sagoo
And I'm hoping that come communication matters in 2026 September,
00:25:52 Bob Sagoo
that we're launched, we're ready to go, and I can just tell you all the exciting things that we want to do.
00:25:58 Bob Sagoo
But yeah, it's something that very much is continuing Harchie's work and his legacy is going to be around that sort of foundation.
00:26:10 Bob Sagoo
But I promise you there'll be more detail at the ATM.
00:26:15 Bob Sagoo
I'm being real casey, I really am.
00:26:18 Bob Sagoo
But yeah.
00:26:19 Chris
You've been teasing this, Bob.
00:26:20 Chris
Tell us about this presentation, because this is something Harji worked on, you worked on together, right?
00:26:25 Chris
And you're carrying on with this presentation.
00:26:27 Chris
Can you tell us a little bit?
00:26:28 Chris
You teased it now a couple of times.
00:26:30 Chris
Give us the grand teaser, the final trailer, if you will.
00:26:35 Bob Sagoo
Right.
00:26:36 Bob Sagoo
So Chris had the, you know, real privilege of getting to meet Hart, so he knows his sense of humour.
00:26:45 Bob Sagoo
And
00:26:46 Bob Sagoo
And Rachel, he was desperate to come on the stat to talk to you and I told them stories about you and all good, honestly.
00:26:57 Bob Sagoo
But what, so he was presenting all from 2023, he was doing presentations virtually and in person.
00:27:08 Bob Sagoo
But ATIO is the one that he really wanted to do.
00:27:11 Bob Sagoo
And what he want, what his presentation is, this is my journey and the ups and the downs.
00:27:21 Bob Sagoo
So I've, we've got about, I've gone through them the other day, we've probably got about 13 or 14 presentations mapped out that one or two I've been, well, more than one or two.
00:27:35 Bob Sagoo
I've delivered those on his behalf.
00:27:38 Bob Sagoo
You know, I started in Paris
00:27:40 Bob Sagoo
Probably last year we've been in Edinburgh and a few other sort of like here locally as well in the UK.
00:27:48 Bob Sagoo
And what we've done, how we've done these is that Harch's element is done by his eye gaze device.
00:27:55 Bob Sagoo
So all I do is facilitate the next paid check that he's, sorry, he's accessing and it's his device.
00:28:05 Bob Sagoo
So it's his words.
00:28:07 Bob Sagoo
are being spoken through his device.
00:28:11 Bob Sagoo
Where the ATIA presentation is going to differ slightly is that is going to be at least 60 to 70% of the presentation.
00:28:21 Bob Sagoo
I will then be talking about the foundation and give a bit more meat on the bones as it were.
00:28:27 Bob Sagoo
Then there is something that is going to be I'm putting together, which if you guys are there, you'll see it.
00:28:37 Bob Sagoo
It's not something I would have done if he was here, but it's because he's not here.
00:28:45 Bob Sagoo
It's something I'm putting together.
00:28:49 Bob Sagoo
I'm doing it at the end because if I did at the beginning, I won't be able to get through the whole presentation.
00:28:54 Bob Sagoo
But it's something that it's my just sort of like, the best way I can put it is that there's more to Harch than his AAC journey.
00:29:04 Bob Sagoo
There's more to Harch
00:29:05 Bob Sagoo
than what he's done in this industry with regards to.
00:29:11 Bob Sagoo
I want people to know the young man and the personality.
00:29:20 Bob Sagoo
And so I'm trying to put that together, the latter part, so people can see there are ways that I've got a way of doing it.
00:29:27 Bob Sagoo
There is something that's probably going to be rather interesting because I know how he wanted to open his presentation.
00:29:36 Bob Sagoo
And it will be loud, but I'm not going to, I am going to do it because that's what he, that's what he wanted to do.
00:29:43 Bob Sagoo
So I'll make sure that I do that.
00:29:45 Bob Sagoo
So it'll be rather loud, whatever I've got planned, what will he ever planned to open up his presentation.
00:29:51 Bob Sagoo
But it's key, it's important for me as a parent, as his father to make sure that I paint a complete picture.
00:29:59 Bob Sagoo
And so yeah, that will be difficult, but it will be,
00:30:05 Bob Sagoo
It will be something that's important to him and important to me and important to he and I.
00:30:10 Bob Sagoo
So yeah, we're very much A-team and we still are as such in that respect.
00:30:15 Bob Sagoo
So yeah, so that's something, it's weird, it's really weird.
00:30:19 Bob Sagoo
I'm looking forward to it.
00:30:21 Bob Sagoo
I'm looking forward to see you guys.
00:30:23 Bob Sagoo
I'm looking forward to the presentation, but I know there's going to be parts that are going to really hit hard.
00:30:29 Bob Sagoo
And it's more because, you know,
00:30:34 Bob Sagoo
The way I can describe it is that Harj is always going to be my favourite person and he's always going to be my favourite topic of your conversation.
00:30:44 Bob Sagoo
It's just that I have to, you know, be just do it on behalf of him and do it with a smile on my face because that's how he looked at life and how he lived his life with a smile on his face and just
00:31:00 Bob Sagoo
and so much love for everybody.
00:31:03 Bob Sagoo
So, I'm trying to be cagey guys.
00:31:05 Bob Sagoo
I really am.
00:31:06 Bob Sagoo
That last bit is something that, is going to be a bit of a homage to him from me and just to give a complete picture of him as it were.
00:31:17 Bob Sagoo
But yeah, I mean, I'm so psyched that ATI is given this opportunity for a posthumous presentation because I don't think it's something that they do.
00:31:29 Bob Sagoo
that often and it's really great to, it there are so many things that I need to do for Hart, but that's the one thing that he was just so adamant that he wanted to do.
00:31:43 Bob Sagoo
So look, I want to come to ATIA and we'd earmarked probably this year or to draw actually come over.
00:31:52 Bob Sagoo
So yeah, it's
00:31:55 Bob Sagoo
I say bittersweet, which is probably a bit more stronger than that.
00:31:57 Bob Sagoo
But still, it's going to be a privilege and my honour to bring his presentation to everybody.
00:32:05 Bob Sagoo
And hopefully there'll be a few people there.
00:32:08 Bob Sagoo
Yeah.
00:32:09 Bob Sagoo
It's early in the morning.
00:32:10 Bob Sagoo
I know it's early in the morning.
00:32:13 Bob Sagoo
But yeah.
00:32:15 Rachel
Bob, what day of the conference is it?
00:32:17 Bob Sagoo
Okay, it's on Friday, the, I'm looking at my calendar, the 30th, isn't it?
00:32:22 Bob Sagoo
Yes, the 30th of Jan.
00:32:25 Bob Sagoo
or Jan 30th.
00:32:26 Bob Sagoo
It's 8.15 in the morning and I can't remember the actual room, but I'll be banging stuff on social media to promote that.
00:32:35 Bob Sagoo
And look, if anybody is listening who's coming to ATIA and is a parent, wants to hear a parent's perspective, but also more importantly, wants to hear a user's perspective on AAC and their journey, what they struggle with, what their likes and dislikes are,
00:32:55 Bob Sagoo
then it's one to it's one to certainly come to.
00:32:58 Bob Sagoo
And I mean, there are there are so many great presentations on.
00:33:02 Bob Sagoo
I mean, that's a that's a great thing about ATIA.
00:33:05 Bob Sagoo
It's not.
00:33:06 Bob Sagoo
I'll take my exhibitor hat off and say, yeah, from a the exhibit exhibition is great to look at new products and see all the stuff, but the plethora of speakers and presentations is what really makes ATIA.
00:33:20 Bob Sagoo
So, yeah, it's
00:33:23 Bob Sagoo
it's good to be in the mix, as it were.
00:33:25 Chris
Well, and I'll add, it's spending time together, right?
00:33:29 Chris
Like we, you and I and Rachel, we don't get to see each other in the flesh that often.
00:33:34 Chris
So getting together after those sessions and talking about how did it go and what's been your life like, I feel like that's a big connection of a big, a big bonus of ATIA as well.
00:33:45 Bob Sagoo
Yeah, I mean, I'll say this, that so, obviously last year,
00:33:52 Bob Sagoo
ACI came around and it was a week after RG's service.
00:33:58 Bob Sagoo
But I thought I needed to go because he had such empathy for people that I know that he would worry how people would be reacted to his passing.
00:34:09 Bob Sagoo
So I said, okay, as you do as a parent, you say, right, I've got to do this, my child, and you know, and that's what you do.
00:34:18 Bob Sagoo
Well, I have to say, and you guys might really don't remember this, but
00:34:22 Bob Sagoo
We walked, I walked you guys back to the chalet where you were staying, your villa, sorry, you were staying.
00:34:29 Bob Sagoo
And we just had a chat and I have to say that you probably don't realise it helped in so many ways just to have that walk with you guys and just to talk and chew the breeze.
00:34:41 Bob Sagoo
So it's my, you know, it's the first opportunity I've had to say it, but unfortunately it's not in person, but it will be when I see you.
00:34:48 Bob Sagoo
But thank you so much for that because that really did
00:34:52 Bob Sagoo
It was a difficult time and I put a bread face on most of the time, but I let my guard down with people that, I'm close, I'm close to you guys and it really did help, just, we just, I can't remember what we're talking about.
00:35:09 Bob Sagoo
It's just the way it left me afterwards was, yeah, was, yeah, really, really helped, helped me out.
00:35:16 Bob Sagoo
So, thanks guys.
00:35:18 Bob Sagoo
I really appreciate it.
00:35:20 Rachel
We're so excited to give you a big hug, Bob.
00:35:23 Bob Sagoo
Yes, you may have a cocktail in your hand, you know, because last time I saw, you always have these cocktails in your hand drinking when you're...
00:35:31 Bob Sagoo
I know, I think of the Cree.
00:35:32 Bob Sagoo
The Cree was where you were.
00:35:34 Bob Sagoo
We all hit the cocktail bar next to the pool with the Cree.
00:35:37 Bob Sagoo
I miss those days.
00:35:38 Bob Sagoo
Yeah, But no, yeah, listen guys, it's been, and I'll say this, I know this when this goes out, but I always say to people,
00:35:49 Bob Sagoo
Because here's the thing, both you guys know this, and you've mentioned it in the past, Chris, that people have this impression that they can't come up to you guys.
00:35:59 Bob Sagoo
They're like, oh, there's Chris.
00:36:01 Bob Sagoo
Oh, right, there's Rachel.
00:36:03 Bob Sagoo
Oh, gosh, I want to go and speak to her, but I don't know.
00:36:06 Bob Sagoo
She's like, you know, this is sort of like, I said, well, dude, guys, just come talk to them.
00:36:12 Bob Sagoo
They're really, they'll, they will.
00:36:15 Bob Sagoo
Yeah, they're incredibly approachable and, don't, they love that interaction.
00:36:23 Bob Sagoo
So please don't, go on, you see and just walk up to them and just have a chat with them because, yeah, they really are good people and they're all the time in the world for you guys.
00:36:36 Bob Sagoo
So, yeah, I know it's, yeah, I just wanted to mention that because it's something that I've heard a lot of people say to me right now, I've said, no, don't talk to them.
00:36:46 Bob Sagoo
Unless Rachel's got a drink in her hand, and then it's like, get to the point real quick, because...
00:36:57 Bob Sagoo
But no, it'll be great to catch you guys and to bring you up to speed on what on what we're doing with Hardy's work and just it's an exciting time.
00:37:09 Bob Sagoo
I don't know what this I get this vibe really do that the 2026.
00:37:14 Bob Sagoo
This is not just me being optimistic, but I think there's some really big innovation coming in 2026.
00:37:21 Bob Sagoo
And I'm really excited.
00:37:23 Bob Sagoo
I mean, you know, from a petroleum perspective, we've got so much what we're bringing to, you know, into the industry with regards to the sector, with regards to computer access.
00:37:33 Bob Sagoo
And Chris knows about this as well, but also with AI, it's not just lip service that people...
00:37:40 Bob Sagoo
Yeah, yes.
00:37:44 Chris
A little hand gesture because Praetorian has this relatively new, but it came out, you're prototyping it last year at ATIA, this motion detected switch that was, I don't know, you describe it, Bob, you can describe it.
00:38:01 Bob Sagoo
It's A proximity switch.
00:38:03 Bob Sagoo
So it is a proximity switch which uses time of flight, which uses a class 1 laser.
00:38:09 Bob Sagoo
So, uses light, so you, for an individual at the moment, if they're using a proximity switch that's around at the moment, it's like touchscreen technology.
00:38:20 Bob Sagoo
So, you, know, it's not particularly great for individuals that may be, let's say, for example, someone who uses has an artificial limb, they won't be able to access a proximity switch.
00:38:30 Bob Sagoo
Whereas with Tofi, names come around because of time of flight is the sensor we use.
00:38:37 Bob Sagoo
So we don't put a lot of thought into product names.
00:38:40 Bob Sagoo
I put my hands up.
00:38:41 Bob Sagoo
Tofi doesn't really translate very well to the US.
00:38:44 Bob Sagoo
I'm thinking of ways to address that, but it's just a whole level of access that individuals that use switches but can't access the switch, with the pressure or the activation, not able to hit a switch.
00:39:00 Bob Sagoo
A proximity switch with a variable range is something that's been really cool.
00:39:04 Bob Sagoo
But that is really cool.
00:39:08 Bob Sagoo
And then that is even better, which is a Bluetooth version, which we're launching at ATIA.
00:39:15 Bob Sagoo
So from a computer access perspective, it's going to be really, really cool for individuals.
00:39:20 Bob Sagoo
So yeah, but we are a small cog in this industry.
00:39:24 Bob Sagoo
And I have to say, there are lots of really cool things that are being worked on and talked about that I think are really going to
00:39:34 Bob Sagoo
make a huge impact with regards to individuals.
00:39:38 Bob Sagoo
And a bit of a reset as well, I think, is what a lot of people are wanting to see now with regards to AAC and Hartch alluded to it, previously with regards to, I want to think outside the box.
00:39:53 Bob Sagoo
I want to just, I don't want to use the conventional way of communication.
00:39:57 Bob Sagoo
I've done that.
00:39:58 Bob Sagoo
I know how that works.
00:39:59 Bob Sagoo
And you can say that because you've gone down that route.
00:40:02 Bob Sagoo
He wanted to say, I wanted to utilize, AI in a good way in the sense of predictive text.
00:40:08 Bob Sagoo
I want to utilize, he loved using WhatsApp and he loved using the emojis.
00:40:14 Bob Sagoo
And he thought using utilizing shortcuts.
00:40:18 Bob Sagoo
is what would really help him to, get his point across and to communicate and just do what he wanted to do.
00:40:26 Bob Sagoo
So, I'm really looking forward to sort of like, we're bringing that work and his thoughts and his, outlook to everyone and over the course of this year and in the future as well.
00:40:41 Chris
Bob, is there a website for the Harchie Way yet or a way for people who are listening to this now to kind of get involved, a newsletter to sign up for or anything?
00:40:49 Chris
What's the best way if people are listening going, oh, I want to learn more and I want to connect?
00:40:53 Chris
Well, what's the best way for them to do that?
00:40:56 Bob Sagoo
I knew you were going to ask me this.
00:41:00 Bob Sagoo
So in a simple answer, no, not yet is the best way to describe it.
00:41:07 Bob Sagoo
Where does it sound?
00:41:08 Bob Sagoo
It's all like the website and the whole e-mail element.
00:41:12 Bob Sagoo
We will have, I'll have something hopefully set up as a holding page at least for ATIA.
00:41:20 Bob Sagoo
But yes, a digital presence is something that is going to be very much something that will come along in a very short space of time.
00:41:30 Bob Sagoo
And just to highlight in the work that we do and the work that we plan to do, but also for
00:41:35 Bob Sagoo
for individuals to reach out to us.
00:41:38 Bob Sagoo
My aim is, and this is something Arch and I talked about, is here in the UK there is a scheme called the AT Scholars, which Chris might be familiar with, where individuals can, who professionals can submit a brief, as it were, and be considered for a visit to ATIA and to present as well as
00:42:06 Bob Sagoo
to experience ACIA.
00:42:09 Bob Sagoo
Harts loved that idea, but he said, what I want to do is to enable an AC user to come and experience ACIA and to present.
00:42:22 Bob Sagoo
So like the PRC lecturers that were.
00:42:28 Bob Sagoo
So that is
00:42:29 Bob Sagoo
One of the things that I want the foundational, we think the foundational work towards is for an AAC user from the UK, ACAT users from the UK to go to ATIA and experience ATIA and all the elements that come with it.
00:42:48 Bob Sagoo
It's great for professionals and so forth, but like CM that Chris has experienced and Rachel, you know, you have an open invitation
00:42:57 Bob Sagoo
to come over to the UK to experience CM.
00:43:00 Bob Sagoo
You've seen how CM works.
00:43:02 Bob Sagoo
It is all based around, so sorry, CM is communication matters.
00:43:06 Bob Sagoo
We are the UK chapter of Isaac and our conference, I say our conference, I sit on the board of, on the board for communication matters.
00:43:18 Bob Sagoo
Our ethos around communication matters is engagement, user engagement.
00:43:23 Bob Sagoo
And that is from presentations, interactions.
00:43:26 Bob Sagoo
There's so many, the whole conference is built around users and giving them the platform to express themselves and to engage with each other as well as, the industry as a whole.
00:43:43 Bob Sagoo
And it's a residential conference.
00:43:45 Bob Sagoo
So it's in Leeds University.
00:43:46 Bob Sagoo
We set up the campus early September.
00:43:49 Bob Sagoo
And it is, it's great.
00:43:50 Bob Sagoo
And Chris has been there.
00:43:52 Bob Sagoo
He's had a few Guinnesses as when he was there as well.
00:43:55 Bob Sagoo
He drank quite a few Guinness.
00:43:57 Bob Sagoo
He didn't drink as much as his wife.
00:44:00 Bob Sagoo
She's.
00:44:01 Chris
Not surprising.
00:44:03 Chris
It's true.
00:44:05 Bob Sagoo
Melissa was like, okay, where's the bar?
00:44:09 Bob Sagoo
And yeah, you do your thing, Chris.
00:44:11 Bob Sagoo
I'll be at the bar.
00:44:12 Bob Sagoo
So hence me and Melissa got on great games.
00:44:14 Bob Sagoo
We got on really well.
00:44:18 Bob Sagoo
But no, it's a great, great conference.
00:44:20 Bob Sagoo
And that's
00:44:21 Bob Sagoo
The essence of that is what Harch wants to do for ultimately his work towards getting a user over to ASE user over to experience.
00:44:31 Bob Sagoo
Well, he wants an experience in regards to ATAA.
00:44:34 Bob Sagoo
And so yeah, that's one of the things we, that's one of, you know, another dream of his.
00:44:40 Bob Sagoo
So that's something I've got to make sure we can realise as such as well.
00:44:46 Chris
I know that you will keep us in the loop and we can share it out through all of our potential means here of as a website develops or a newsletter develops or as things develop, of course we'll be in contact.
00:44:59 Chris
So let us know what we can do to help.
00:45:01 Bob Sagoo
Yeah, I will do, guys.
00:45:02 Bob Sagoo
And yeah, there'll be a lot of engagement, I think, on that front.
00:45:05 Bob Sagoo
But yeah, all of the above is what we'll have in place and that interaction.
00:45:11 Bob Sagoo
It's something that we want to, make sure we do in the right way.
00:45:16 Bob Sagoo
But absolutely.
00:45:17 Bob Sagoo
So, and then it's coming over the coming months.
00:45:19 Bob Sagoo
You'll hear and see a lot more about the Heart UA and you got to learn about, this exceptional young man and the impact he's had.
00:45:29 Bob Sagoo
And also you'll get to see and hear hopefully and experience, you know, what he wanted to put in place and hopefully that will
00:45:37 Bob Sagoo
that will come to fruition and we'll see some changes.
00:45:41 Bob Sagoo
But like I say, I'm excited about what the future holds.
00:45:47 Bob Sagoo
It's A double-edged sword because Clark knew what was coming and he was excited about it.
00:45:52 Bob Sagoo
But you know, it's up for me, it's down to me and the foundation to pick up that.
00:46:00 Bob Sagoo
to pick that up for him and move forward with it.
00:46:03 Bob Sagoo
So that's what we'll definitely be doing.
00:46:05 Bob Sagoo
But we're not alone in that.
00:46:07 Bob Sagoo
There are so many people like yourselves that we'll ensure that happens.
00:46:13 Bob Sagoo
So yeah, exciting times ahead for sure.
00:46:18 Rachel
Thank you so much, Bob.
00:46:19 Rachel
It was such a pleasure talking to you.
00:46:20 Rachel
I'm so excited for your presentation at ATIA and also just connecting and like I said, giving you a big hug.
00:46:28 Rachel
We really appreciate you coming on today and sharing everything.
00:46:31 Rachel
And I'm really just so eager to see everything that unfolds with this foundation and honoring Harchie and all of the amazing work that he was doing in the field and seeing that continue on.
00:46:44 Rachel
So thank you so much for being here today and doing all the work that you do.
00:46:49 Bob Sagoo
No worries.
00:46:50 Bob Sagoo
It's a pleasure.
00:46:50 Bob Sagoo
Always a pleasure to catch up with you guys.
00:46:52 Rachel
So for Talking With Tech, I'm Rachel Madel, joined by Chris Bugaj and Bob Sagoo.
00:46:56 Rachel
Thank you guys so much for listening.
00:46:58 Rachel
We'll talk to you soon.